Credit card protection question?
Discussion
I've had some work done on my house recently. Long painful story that I won't bore you with, but a £14,000 job that was supposed to take 4 weeks hit a problem that the builder couldn't resolve, and after a couple of months of trying to fix it (and nearly 4 months from the actual completion date), it's clear that he isn't able to (in essence, I think he's used materials that are not up to the job). It's not just a cosmetic thing, the problem is a safety issue.
When it became clear that his incessant attempts to bodge a repair were going nowhere, I eventually ran out of patience and gave him the option of either my getting a structural engineer to look at the problem, come up with a proper solution and the builder to rectify it to his satisfaction or that I get someone else to finish the job properly and he pay for that. His response was to try and blame me for breaking it, and we have reached an impasse.
I have spoken to a structural engineer, he's pretty sure he knows what the problem is, and it's fixable, albeit with time and inevitable extra expense. His suggestion is to get the local council Building Control involved because he's absolutely certain that there is no way they will sign it off as it is, and then we have something concrete to go back to the original builder with. However, I suspect we will get nowhere, and the solution will be for me to pay out and then to attempt to recover the cost from the builder via Small Claims, an absolute ball-ache that I could really live without!
Anyway, that's the background, here's the question. When I got the first invoice from the builder (there have been several as stage payments for materials, and then a final one which I paid, very stupidly, because I've always worked on the basis that if you look after people well, they will look after you. Not this time), it was via Quickbooks invoicing and it was for about £3,000. And I paid it with a credit card. Since then the credit card option disappeared (unsurprisingly, it must cost the builder quite a bit in fees - I was surprised to see it the first time) so all subsiquent payments were bank transfers from my current acount.
A quick Google suggests:
Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act provides peace of mind for anyone using a credit card to fund home improvements. As long as you spend between £100 and £30,000, your credit card company is as liable for a breach of contract as the retailer or trader.
This means that if you have problem with work carried out on your home, as long as you used your credit card, you can make a claim to the supplier and your credit card company at the same time (although you’ll only recover your money from one of them) - conditions apply. This isn’t possible when paying with a debit card.
And so here is the million dollar (or more precisely, £14,000) question. In order to qualify for that 'peace of mind', would you have had to use your card for all of the payments, or is the fact that one of the payments was made by card enough to involve the card company..?
When it became clear that his incessant attempts to bodge a repair were going nowhere, I eventually ran out of patience and gave him the option of either my getting a structural engineer to look at the problem, come up with a proper solution and the builder to rectify it to his satisfaction or that I get someone else to finish the job properly and he pay for that. His response was to try and blame me for breaking it, and we have reached an impasse.
I have spoken to a structural engineer, he's pretty sure he knows what the problem is, and it's fixable, albeit with time and inevitable extra expense. His suggestion is to get the local council Building Control involved because he's absolutely certain that there is no way they will sign it off as it is, and then we have something concrete to go back to the original builder with. However, I suspect we will get nowhere, and the solution will be for me to pay out and then to attempt to recover the cost from the builder via Small Claims, an absolute ball-ache that I could really live without!
Anyway, that's the background, here's the question. When I got the first invoice from the builder (there have been several as stage payments for materials, and then a final one which I paid, very stupidly, because I've always worked on the basis that if you look after people well, they will look after you. Not this time), it was via Quickbooks invoicing and it was for about £3,000. And I paid it with a credit card. Since then the credit card option disappeared (unsurprisingly, it must cost the builder quite a bit in fees - I was surprised to see it the first time) so all subsiquent payments were bank transfers from my current acount.
A quick Google suggests:
Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act provides peace of mind for anyone using a credit card to fund home improvements. As long as you spend between £100 and £30,000, your credit card company is as liable for a breach of contract as the retailer or trader.
This means that if you have problem with work carried out on your home, as long as you used your credit card, you can make a claim to the supplier and your credit card company at the same time (although you’ll only recover your money from one of them) - conditions apply. This isn’t possible when paying with a debit card.
And so here is the million dollar (or more precisely, £14,000) question. In order to qualify for that 'peace of mind', would you have had to use your card for all of the payments, or is the fact that one of the payments was made by card enough to involve the card company..?
Interesting scenario. When I worked in business banking (a number of years ago) we would never allow a builder take credit cards (along with some other business areas) The risk had to be signed off for chargeback by an account manager and for many years IIRC it was against policy. The reason being that building transactions are typically high value so if a chargeback was made and the builder/account holder did not have the funds or facilities to cover it we would be left holding the baby so to speak.
Ari said:
Just checking my original credit card statement, and it says the payment is to PayPal, although it does include the name of the building company. Does that change anything?
I'm not an expert, but in theory I would imagine that if your card was what ultimately funded the builder's invoice (even via PayPal) then that's still the source of the funds...? Especially as it shows the payment through PayPal was to the builder's company.If anything, you may also potentially have recourse thorugh PayPal too if necessary?
Ari said:
Just checking my original credit card statement, and it says the payment is to PayPal, although it does include the name of the building company. Does that change anything?
Answered here: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/Pay...ro250 said:
Ari said:
Just checking my original credit card statement, and it says the payment is to PayPal, although it does include the name of the building company. Does that change anything?
Answered here: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/credit-cards/Pay...
Guess it's going to be hugely dependent on the exact process the OP went through when paying through PayPal...Funk said:
Ari said:
Just checking my original credit card statement, and it says the payment is to PayPal, although it does include the name of the building company. Does that change anything?
I'm not an expert, but in theory I would imagine that if your card was what ultimately funded the builder's invoice (even via PayPal) then that's still the source of the funds...? Especially as it shows the payment through PayPal was to the builder's company.If anything, you may also potentially have recourse thorugh PayPal too if necessary?
It is still worth talking to Paypal. There is 'Paypal Protection'. I think that too is time barred for misdescribed goods via trader (your case) at 180 days.
I would talk to Citizens Advice-they are very helpful.
Ooh, that's a bugger. I do have a PayPal account, whether it was logged in at the time, I have no idea. I use it very rarely so probably not. Certainly as far as this went (from what I remember, it was back in April), I think it was a simple pay with card situation, I certainly didn'[t pay with PayPal.
I've also just checked, and I have a VAT receipt directly from the builder (not from PayPal) for the exact amount of that payment. It's marked 'Deposit payment'.
If my claim were to be successful, would the credit card company seek to recover the total cost (likely to be more than this deposit) from the builder?
I've also just checked, and I have a VAT receipt directly from the builder (not from PayPal) for the exact amount of that payment. It's marked 'Deposit payment'.
If my claim were to be successful, would the credit card company seek to recover the total cost (likely to be more than this deposit) from the builder?
AdamIM said:
You may have Chargeback (CC coy) as an option however that is time barred at 120 days post transaction date and i suspect you have gone over that.
It is still worth talking to Paypal. There is 'Paypal Protection'. I think that too is time barred for misdescribed goods via trader (your case) at 180 days.
I would talk to Citizens Advice-they are very helpful.
Definitely over 120 days. Just inside 180 days, but only just and I need to prove that the job is faulty, at the moment the builder is saying it's fine and I need to prove that it isn't (which won't be that hard, it very clearly isn't! But it will be time consuming).It is still worth talking to Paypal. There is 'Paypal Protection'. I think that too is time barred for misdescribed goods via trader (your case) at 180 days.
I would talk to Citizens Advice-they are very helpful.
Ari said:
AdamIM said:
You may have Chargeback (CC coy) as an option however that is time barred at 120 days post transaction date and i suspect you have gone over that.
It is still worth talking to Paypal. There is 'Paypal Protection'. I think that too is time barred for misdescribed goods via trader (your case) at 180 days.
I would talk to Citizens Advice-they are very helpful.
Definitely over 120 days. Just inside 180 days, but only just and I need to prove that the job is faulty, at the moment the builder is saying it's fine and I need to prove that it isn't (which won't be that hard, it very clearly isn't! But it will be time consuming).It is still worth talking to Paypal. There is 'Paypal Protection'. I think that too is time barred for misdescribed goods via trader (your case) at 180 days.
I would talk to Citizens Advice-they are very helpful.
AdamIM said:
Ari said:
AdamIM said:
You may have Chargeback (CC coy) as an option however that is time barred at 120 days post transaction date and i suspect you have gone over that.
It is still worth talking to Paypal. There is 'Paypal Protection'. I think that too is time barred for misdescribed goods via trader (your case) at 180 days.
I would talk to Citizens Advice-they are very helpful.
Definitely over 120 days. Just inside 180 days, but only just and I need to prove that the job is faulty, at the moment the builder is saying it's fine and I need to prove that it isn't (which won't be that hard, it very clearly isn't! But it will be time consuming).It is still worth talking to Paypal. There is 'Paypal Protection'. I think that too is time barred for misdescribed goods via trader (your case) at 180 days.
I would talk to Citizens Advice-they are very helpful.
Ari said:
Definitely over 120 days. Just inside 180 days, but only just and I need to prove that the job is faulty, at the moment the builder is saying it's fine and I need to prove that it isn't (which won't be that hard, it very clearly isn't! But it will be time consuming).
Get the claim logged tomorrow; you can get the evidence together afterwards.When I went through this last time the CC company advised me that Chargeback is the first option, and if that fails then it goes to S75. Certainly one or both of those would be your first resort as it's very much easier (and faster) than Small Claims. Get your ducks in a row, and good luck.
Ari said:
Ooh, that's a bugger. I do have a PayPal account, whether it was logged in at the time, I have no idea. I use it very rarely so probably not. Certainly as far as this went (from what I remember, it was back in April), I think it was a simple pay with card situation, I certainly didn'[t pay with PayPal.
I've also just checked, and I have a VAT receipt directly from the builder (not from PayPal) for the exact amount of that payment. It's marked 'Deposit payment'.
If my claim were to be successful, would the credit card company seek to recover the total cost (likely to be more than this deposit) from the builder?
If it's come from your Paypal you should be able to see in your Paypal history? If it's not there then I guess you're clear?I've also just checked, and I have a VAT receipt directly from the builder (not from PayPal) for the exact amount of that payment. It's marked 'Deposit payment'.
If my claim were to be successful, would the credit card company seek to recover the total cost (likely to be more than this deposit) from the builder?
Good luck with getting a solution.
FriedMarsBar said:
If it's come from your Paypal you should be able to see in your Paypal history? If it's not there then I guess you're clear?
Good luck with getting a solution.
That is a very good question. Just checked and there is no record of it in my Paypal history. Good luck with getting a solution.
I guess that means that Paypal won't be interested, and I'm over the time limit for the credit card to be interested. That's a shame.
Appreciate all the help and suggestions with this, it's been really helpful.
Ari said:
FriedMarsBar said:
If it's come from your Paypal you should be able to see in your Paypal history? If it's not there then I guess you're clear?
Good luck with getting a solution.
That is a very good question. Just checked and there is no record of it in my Paypal history. Good luck with getting a solution.
I guess that means that Paypal won't be interested, and I'm over the time limit for the credit card to be interested. That's a shame.
Appreciate all the help and suggestions with this, it's been really helpful.
Section 75 theoretically has a 6 year limit due to Statute of Limitations. I'd go for this initially as it will cover the entire spend cf Chargeback is only for the card component (£3k) and is much more limited in how it applies. Section 75 generally covers 'breach of contract'
Crack on
Edited by AdamIM on Wednesday 5th October 09:01
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