How to legally drive through this junction

[Largechris]

I'm a great driver but this junction must be one of the worst in the country, M25 anticlockwise onto the A12 Northbound towards Chemsford (3rd exit of the roundabout).

All is clear on the approach, good long run up, left hand lane only:


First dilemma, road splits into two lanes


Then the right hand lane splits into two lanes both for the A12E and the fourth exit for the A1023


Then left hand lane splits in two, A12W, A12E, and the right hand lanes become A12E (as well as the second lane) and A1023

[Largechris]

Now the fun begins. Lane 3 and 4 often has a queue, which you can see from a way back, with slowly accelerating HGVs etc. Lane 2 (still A12E remember) is often available to scoot down.

But lanes 2 and 3 narrow and merge as you come onto the roundabout. The new left hand lane becomes straight back onto the M25 only:



But as you pass exit 2, the roundabout opens back out with two lanes again for exit 3, A12E:


Those two lanes then merge again on the off ramp onto the A12:




Which creates more honking as anyone perceived to have driven in whichever was the quickest lane is now queue jumping again.

Edited by Largechris on Friday 21st October 08:40

[Griffith4ever]

legally, you can navigate it however you like.

Btw, that "First dilemma, road splits into two lanes" dilemma of yours. Every single motorway exit slip I can think of does that.its fantastic as it means you can glide down the right of the daft (and dangerous) queues that form on the left lane, then easily join the outer of the two exit lane when it appears.

Edited by Griffith4ever on Friday 21st October 08:37

[Largechris]

From long experience, basically if you choose lane 2 or 3 on the basis it has less traffic, you will get honked for trying to merge "queue jumping".

If you take the left hand lane on the roundabout to get ready for where the lane opens into two again, you'll technically be in the wrong lane.

Whats the best way to drive this junction?

[Vasco]

Largechris said:

From long experience, basically if you choose lane 2 or 3 on the basis it has less traffic, you will get honked for trying to merge "queue jumping".

If you take the left hand lane on the roundabout to get ready for where the lane opens into two again, you'll technically be in the wrong lane.

Whats the best way to drive this junction?

I doubt if there is a 'best' or even 100% correct way to drive this - albeit there are many similar predicaments all over the country.
The majority of users will be regulars whose experience will determine what they feel is best, only newbies may get a bit flumoxed.

[Evanivitch]

Largechris said:

Now the fun begins. Lane 3 and 4 often has a queue, which you can see from a way back, with slowly accelerating HGVs etc. Lane 2 (still A12E remember) is often available to scoot down.

But lanes 2 and 3 narrow and merge as you come onto the roundabout. The new left hand lane becomes straight back onto the M25 only:

Lack of road markings seem to be the issue here, but Lane 2 neither merges into 3 nor does it become M25 only.

[anonymous-user]

My (vague) understanding is that those road markings are not mandatory. If you roll up at a junction or lights, and there is am arrow on the road and the words “LEFT TURN ONLY’, then that is mandatory. But without the “do this ONLY’ stipulation the markings are for guidance.

[_Hoppers]

BlackWidow13 said:

My (vague) understanding is that those road markings are not mandatory. If you roll up at a junction or lights, and there is am arrow on the road and the words “LEFT TURN ONLY’, then that is mandatory. But without the “do this ONLY’ stipulation the markings are for guidance.

The road markings also have to be backed up by signage (IIRC?!)

[KAgantua]

I always stick to the third lane at the lights, even though second lane is A12 too. It feels like the second lane 'disappears' and you are left hanging.

[RazerSauber]

I haven't got anything useful to contribute so I'll say: Bomb down the far right lane and hope nobody is there, enter the roundabout far too quickly, flick it round with the handbrake and a dab of oppo and floor it to your exit. If you're going to get honked at no matter what, you might as well have a good time.

[spitfire-ian]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. They're changing it all anyway https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-roads/m25-junct...

[Largechris]

spitfire-ian said:

I wouldn't worry too much about it. They're changing it all anyway https://nationalhighways.co.uk/our-roads/m25-junct...

Yes, I saw a bit about it but there's no signs of any preparation work going on, certainly not ready to start this month as promised. Suspect it will be mothballed considering the current political shambles.

[Largechris]

KAgantua said:

I always stick to the third lane at the lights, even though second lane is A12 too. It feels like the second lane 'disappears' and you are left hanging.

Ok, but did you honk me this morning as I overtook you in the 2nd lane and tried to merge?

[Largechris]

Evanivitch said:

Largechris said:

Now the fun begins. Lane 3 and 4 often has a queue, which you can see from a way back, with slowly accelerating HGVs etc. Lane 2 (still A12E remember) is often available to scoot down.

But lanes 2 and 3 narrow and merge as you come onto the roundabout. The new left hand lane becomes straight back onto the M25 only:

Lack of road markings seem to be the issue here, but Lane 2 neither merges into 3 nor does it become M25 only.

I think you're just being a contrarian probably using some absurd definition of "lane" from the 1946 copy of the Highway Code.

[PhilboSE]

Griffith4ever said:

Every single motorway exit slip I can think of does that.its fantastic as it means you can glide down the right of the daft (and dangerous) queues that form on the left lane, then easily join the outer of the two exit lane when it appears.

That strategy is downright dangerous at this junction. There is a very long dedicated lane to come off the M25 because it’s a short slip road down to a very busy roundabout (A12 is major route for lorries to Felixstowe).

If you try to bypass the dedicated slip lane and join the second exit slip lane at the last minute you might well find it full of traffic. Then you get the throbbers that do this stopped in lane 2, indicating left hoping that a space in stationary traffic will suddenly open up. Then you get a queue of throbbers forming up behind, with an HGV legitimately in what is now the inside lane of the M25 bearing down on a queue of parked cars.

In busy times (Friday afternoons, particularly in summer) I have even seen stationary queues of edge lord throbbers forming in lane 2 of the M25 (the third lane of 4). Too stupid to realise that their strategy has failed and push on to the next junction, they risk being rear ended by a lorry for the sake of being too much of a road warrior to queue like everyone else.

[PhilboSE]

Largechris said:

Evanivitch said:

Largechris said:

Now the fun begins. Lane 3 and 4 often has a queue, which you can see from a way back, with slowly accelerating HGVs etc. Lane 2 (still A12E remember) is often available to scoot down.

But lanes 2 and 3 narrow and merge as you come onto the roundabout. The new left hand lane becomes straight back onto the M25 only:

Lack of road markings seem to be the issue here, but Lane 2 neither merges into 3 nor does it become M25 only.

I think you're just being a contrarian probably using some absurd definition of "lane" from the 1946 copy of the Highway Code.

The major issue is the roundabout where you might legitimately enter in lane 4 but need to filter across to lane 2 to come off for the A12 exit, at the same time you can have people in lanes 1&2 somehow in the wrong place and want to go past the A12 exit while 2 lanes are trying to cut in front of them to take the exit AND merge into one lane at the same time.

It’s a bit hair raising but awareness and anticipation usually makes it all work out. I’ve driven it thousands of times and not been honked.

[Griffith4ever]

PhilboSE said:

That strategy is downright dangerous at this junction. There is a very long dedicated lane to come off the M25 because it’s a short slip road down to a very busy roundabout (A12 is major route for lorries to Felixstowe).

If you try to bypass the dedicated slip lane and join the second exit slip lane at the last minute you might well find it full of traffic. Then you get the throbbers that do this stopped in lane 2, indicating left hoping that a space in stationary traffic will suddenly open up.

And that's the difference between me and the "throbbers" - I'd not dream of ever, ever, stopping in L2, indicating. I'd drive on. Same as I would not sit in an L1 que out on the motorway.

However.... I have never, in all my years of driving (I'm 53 now) experienced an L2 que out to the motorway at any motorway juntion I've used. I guess I'm lucky enough not to live near a madly busy junction, AND drive at rush hour.

Nothing to do with being a "road warrior" - I'm just not sitting queuing on a motorway, and in all my experience so far, waiting till the end finds you an totally empty lane 2 exit. If that makes me a throbber, then I'm a quick thinking throbber who doesn't sit in unescessary queues. I throb, therefore I am.

Edited by Griffith4ever on Friday 21st October 10:02

[Evanivitch]

Largechris said:

I think you're just being a contrarian probably using some absurd definition of "lane" from the 1946 copy of the Highway Code.

I gave an honest response lil'chris, but given you're the driving god and engineer of exceptional talent (how's the garage roof?), why did you even bother asking for other opinions?

You can even see the lane markings from a plane...

Edited by Evanivitch on Friday 21st October 10:17

[Pica-Pica]

I think this shows you all you need to know.

[PhilboSE]

Griffith4ever said:

PhilboSE said:

That strategy is downright dangerous at this junction. There is a very long dedicated lane to come off the M25 because it’s a short slip road down to a very busy roundabout (A12 is major route for lorries to Felixstowe).

If you try to bypass the dedicated slip lane and join the second exit slip lane at the last minute you might well find it full of traffic. Then you get the throbbers that do this stopped in lane 2, indicating left hoping that a space in stationary traffic will suddenly open up.

And that's the difference between me and the "throbbers" - I'd not dream of ever, ever, stopping in L2, indicating. I'd drive on. Same as I would not sit in an L1 que out on the motorway.

However.... I have never, in all my years of driving (I'm 53 now) experienced an L2 que out to the motorway at any motorway juntion I've used. I guess I'm lucky enough not to live near a madly busy junction, AND drive at rush hour.

Nothing to do with being a "road warrior" - I'm just not sitting queuing on a motorway, and in all my experience so far, waiting till the end finds you an totally empty lane 2 exit. If that makes me a throbber, then I'm a quick thinking throbber who doesn't sit in unescessary queues. I throb, therefore I am.

Edited by Griffith4ever on Friday 21st October 10:02

That’s all good and I hope you noticed I didn’t call you a throbber - just the ones who decide to park in a flowing motorway when their strategy fails. If you take the hit and drive on past the junction - fine. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t (I do it too at junctions I’m familiar with where it generally works), it’s how you cope with the fallout that counts.

About 4 years ago I was sat in the exit slip lane at that junction for about 2 hours on a Friday afternoon. The stationary queue in lane 1 of the M25 got to about half a mile long - all of them pushing in meant that the legitimate slip lane queue hardly advanced at all. It was at this point that ultra throbbers started trying to jump the queue jumpers, bombing down lane 3 then trying to slam on the anchors and stick their nose into a 6” gap between cars. I saw HGVs doing emergency braking and swerving into the outside lane. It was the single most dangerous thing I’ve ever experienced on the road network, all because of impatience.