Litigating against TT2 (Tyne Tunnel) for UTCN
Discussion
Has anyone successfully litigated against TT2 for their practices of issuing UTCNs (unpaid toll charge notices)?
I have filed a claim and my case against them is listed in Court for early 2023 and I would like to get in touch with others who have done so.
As this is PH I also expect the usual unhelpful responses
I can't provide too many details here as it's a public forum.
I have filed a claim and my case against them is listed in Court for early 2023 and I would like to get in touch with others who have done so.
As this is PH I also expect the usual unhelpful responses
I can't provide too many details here as it's a public forum.
The straight answer to your question is no, but I do have an interest in the Tyne Tunnel situation and follow the Facebook group.
Why would you take action against the Tunnel? I thought if they sent a UTCN and you disputed it you would just not pay and wait to see what they did, if anything, to recover?
Why would you take action against the Tunnel? I thought if they sent a UTCN and you disputed it you would just not pay and wait to see what they did, if anything, to recover?
No idea, but going through it unexpectedly last year I think they need to modernise it.
Was following a sat nav that gave no warning it was a toll road, first I knew about it i was in it. There didn’t seem to be clear warning or any chance to turn off. I dare say if you know the road well it’s obvious.
I seem to remember paying it online later was complicated by very confusing 12:00 deadlines that could have been read as either 12am or 12pm and two different days. Whatever it was meant to be was misinterpreted by the wife and we got some sort of fine as well.
I haven’t seen them on watchdog, so I assume all of the above was our incompetence though!
Was following a sat nav that gave no warning it was a toll road, first I knew about it i was in it. There didn’t seem to be clear warning or any chance to turn off. I dare say if you know the road well it’s obvious.
I seem to remember paying it online later was complicated by very confusing 12:00 deadlines that could have been read as either 12am or 12pm and two different days. Whatever it was meant to be was misinterpreted by the wife and we got some sort of fine as well.
I haven’t seen them on watchdog, so I assume all of the above was our incompetence though!
Rozzers said:
You have at least 24 hours to pay the toll on line, the sign says ‘by midnight tomorrow’
A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today." That's a pretty stupid way to express a deadline intended to be widely understood.A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
skwdenyer said:
Rozzers said:
You have at least 24 hours to pay the toll on line, the sign says ‘by midnight tomorrow’
A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today." That's a pretty stupid way to express a deadline intended to be widely understood.A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
It may have been a local paper which carried the story of an elderly chap who'd been caught out with this ridiculous scheme. He'd used the tunnel not knowing the system had changed. He had no internet access, so couldn't pay online. He didn't know what number to call to pay by phone, so called directory enquiries, the cost of which was more than the toll itself!
Mind you - it's only marginally more stupid than the last scheme - cash only, no change given, always an obscure amount (£1.90 IIRC) and an escape road/change machine which you've already passed before you realise and which probably isn't working anyway.
skwdenyer said:
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today."
Following on from the previous 2 post, add me to your 50% as well.In fact I think your 50% is probably nearer to 99%.
littleredrooster said:
skwdenyer said:
Rozzers said:
You have at least 24 hours to pay the toll on line, the sign says ‘by midnight tomorrow’
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today." That's a pretty stupid way to express a deadline intended to be widely understood.I'd be the same.
The Dartford crossing uses the wording
You must pay the Dartford Crossing charge by midnight the day after you cross which would mean before midnight on the 6th if I crossed today
TT Tunnel uses
The toll can be pre-paid or paid by midnight the day after your journey
Which in my CSE grade 2 English language means exactly the same thing
The Dartford crossing uses the wording
You must pay the Dartford Crossing charge by midnight the day after you cross which would mean before midnight on the 6th if I crossed today
TT Tunnel uses
The toll can be pre-paid or paid by midnight the day after your journey
Which in my CSE grade 2 English language means exactly the same thing
skwdenyer said:
Rozzers said:
You have at least 24 hours to pay the toll on line, the sign says ‘by midnight tomorrow’
A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today." That's a pretty stupid way to express a deadline intended to be widely understood.A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
That said I couldn’t see anything on the TT2 website that gives an explanation or worked example of how this deadline works that would confirm that understanding.
Why do you think that if you cross on the 5th you have until midnight on the 5th to pay?
Yellow Lizud said:
skwdenyer said:
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today."
Following on from the previous 2 post, add me to your 50% as well.In fact I think your 50% is probably nearer to 99%.
I don’t understand how people can misinterpret midnight tomorrow - it’s very clear.
There’s a local toll road near us with the same working so the community Facebook groups are full of morons who couldn’t be bothered to pay, interpreted it as something else entirely or just felt it was unjust they had to pay to use a road, so wouldn’t bother.
Really can’t see the issue, I’d love to see the signage involved with the OP’s road
There’s a local toll road near us with the same working so the community Facebook groups are full of morons who couldn’t be bothered to pay, interpreted it as something else entirely or just felt it was unjust they had to pay to use a road, so wouldn’t bother.
Really can’t see the issue, I’d love to see the signage involved with the OP’s road
BlackWidow13 said:
skwdenyer said:
Rozzers said:
You have at least 24 hours to pay the toll on line, the sign says ‘by midnight tomorrow’
A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today." That's a pretty stupid way to express a deadline intended to be widely understood.A damn sight easier than arriving at the previous unexpected toll booths with no means of payment.
And if you’re a ‘freeman’ type…..
That said I couldn’t see anything on the TT2 website that gives an explanation or worked example of how this deadline works that would confirm that understanding.
Why do you think that if you cross on the 5th you have until midnight on the 5th to pay?
Just Google for the definition of midnight - is it the start of the day, or the end? It is a ridiculous ambiguity to use it as a deadline for anything.
Even the National Physical Laboratory, responsible for setting time standards in the UK, has no canonical answer: https://www.npl.co.uk/resources/q-a/is-midnight-12...
Sure, everyone has their own personal idea of what it means, and they assume others follow them. But that's just not the case.
It is easy to avoid: just say you "you can pay the charge up until 23:59 on the day following the charging day" if you like. But "midnight" is horrific for this sort of thing.
skwdenyer said:
I'd wager that at least 50% of the population couldn't accurately define what is meant by "by midnight tomorrow". They wouldn't know it means "until 23:59:59 today." That's a pretty stupid way to express a deadline intended to be widely understood.
Just coming back to this, and I think you're wrong.Midnight tomorrow means just that. Midnight (ie 12am, 00:00, the middle of the night) the day after you travel through. So you have at least 24 hours to pay. Which makes perfect sense because if you pass through at 23:59 you can't possibly pay online before a 00:00 deadline 1 minute later.
CrgT16 said:
Midnight tomorrow is extremely clear! I understand it as intended and my first language is not English. Midnight is 12 o’clock , middle of the night.
Quote:-Midnight is 12 o’clock , middle of the night.
End quote.
Yes, quite, but which day? As your first language is not English we aren't surprised that you don't understand correctly.
If they said "23:59 on the day following the crossing, there would be no confusion.
The point someone made that they can’t possibly expect someone to pay within one minute if they cross at 23.59 seems like a good one, but I have no idea if that’s a legal argument.
OP has probably thought about this already, but I’d strongly consider whether a legal challenge is really worth it. No one ever seems to come out of these things happy.
OP has probably thought about this already, but I’d strongly consider whether a legal challenge is really worth it. No one ever seems to come out of these things happy.
The Mad Monk said:
Quote:-
Midnight is 12 o’clock , middle of the night.
End quote.
Yes, quite, but which day? As your first language is not English we aren't surprised that you don't understand correctly.
If they said "23:59 on the day following the crossing, there would be no confusion.
I beg to differ, I understand it correctly or at least I understand what was intended. If you pass the toll today you can pay it tomorrow up until midnight. Midnight is 12 o’clock , middle of the night.
End quote.
Yes, quite, but which day? As your first language is not English we aren't surprised that you don't understand correctly.
If they said "23:59 on the day following the crossing, there would be no confusion.
Only in PH one would be finding it difficult to understand what was intended.
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