Power delivery c6 zo6/ C63 amg w204 etc
Discussion
Hello everyone, I have a question that remains unanswered.
turbos are known to give a thump in the back and that's true but i wonder if a big engine like a corvette zo6 or 6.2 amg gives that push in the back?? yes the power delivery is linear but there is a lot of torque and when I see acceleration in first gear towards 3000 rm/p the car goes forward instantly and I have the impression that it's like a thump of turbo? at this time, the shove and it identical to a turbo or it feels differently?? I have never tried such big motors n/a over than 4.3 liter.
turbos are known to give a thump in the back and that's true but i wonder if a big engine like a corvette zo6 or 6.2 amg gives that push in the back?? yes the power delivery is linear but there is a lot of torque and when I see acceleration in first gear towards 3000 rm/p the car goes forward instantly and I have the impression that it's like a thump of turbo? at this time, the shove and it identical to a turbo or it feels differently?? I have never tried such big motors n/a over than 4.3 liter.
My car has the M113 5.4L V8, so a fair bit junior to the engines you're talking about, however it was an interesting comparison with the sequential twin turbos of the RX-7 I had alongside it until recently.
The nat-asp V8 is very linear, it has torque but it applies it gradually, the feeling is of the power growing with revs.
The turbo engine is more of an 'S curve', in that it starts small and then the power comes in a surge like a wave pushing you forwards, once it's on boost it then feels 'flatter' as you extend it (apart from the sequential changeover
)
Ultimately both cars had very similar roll-on overtaking potential, but achieved it in very different ways, which felt different behind the wheel.
I think it's hard to really describe the difference in feel between large capacity naturally aspirated and smaller turbo engines of similar potential, but they do feel different. It's even harder to choose between them, so I think the safest thing to do is to own one of each
The nat-asp V8 is very linear, it has torque but it applies it gradually, the feeling is of the power growing with revs.
The turbo engine is more of an 'S curve', in that it starts small and then the power comes in a surge like a wave pushing you forwards, once it's on boost it then feels 'flatter' as you extend it (apart from the sequential changeover
)Ultimately both cars had very similar roll-on overtaking potential, but achieved it in very different ways, which felt different behind the wheel.
I think it's hard to really describe the difference in feel between large capacity naturally aspirated and smaller turbo engines of similar potential, but they do feel different. It's even harder to choose between them, so I think the safest thing to do is to own one of each
Thanks for your feedback
I understand what you are saying, yes a naturally aspirated engine evolves in a linear and progressive way there is no doubt about it. if you start from low revs (1000-1500 rmp) accelerating to the maximum the push will be progressive and will increase with the revs. it won't be brutal, that's for sure. contrary to the turbo which arrives suddenly (old mechanics).
my question focused more on the sensation felt in recovery on the 1st or 2nd gearbox ratio at around 3000-4000rmp with a large N/A engine the power to develop is higher than 1500 necessarily! and I was wondering if the feeling of blow in the back is similar to a turbo when you accelerate towards this mode with a very large engine (I have the impression that its pushes very hard and pushes you back in the seat in an instantaneous way, but is it as violent as a turbo can be or not)?
I understand what you are saying, yes a naturally aspirated engine evolves in a linear and progressive way there is no doubt about it. if you start from low revs (1000-1500 rmp) accelerating to the maximum the push will be progressive and will increase with the revs. it won't be brutal, that's for sure. contrary to the turbo which arrives suddenly (old mechanics).
my question focused more on the sensation felt in recovery on the 1st or 2nd gearbox ratio at around 3000-4000rmp with a large N/A engine the power to develop is higher than 1500 necessarily! and I was wondering if the feeling of blow in the back is similar to a turbo when you accelerate towards this mode with a very large engine (I have the impression that its pushes very hard and pushes you back in the seat in an instantaneous way, but is it as violent as a turbo can be or not)?
have no experience of a 5.4 m113 amg i guess?
nor a rx7
let's say I own a car in between (v8 twin turbo)
and for my part on other v8 n/a of medium displacement (less than 5 liters but more than 4 liters) whether in 1st 2nd 3rd gearbox speed around 3000 rpm I felt that the engine started instantly like a -strokes but no strong thrust felt like a turbo
nor a rx7
let's say I own a car in between (v8 twin turbo)
and for my part on other v8 n/a of medium displacement (less than 5 liters but more than 4 liters) whether in 1st 2nd 3rd gearbox speed around 3000 rpm I felt that the engine started instantly like a -strokes but no strong thrust felt like a turbo
Ok, I think I understand, going from off-throttle to on-throttle when the engine is already in the mid-range, 3,000-4,000 rpm or so.
Tbh I haven't really done this, because being a Merc my car's auto, so if you lift off it'll change up, and then when you accelerate you get one or more downchanges. It has manual mode, but it tends to ignore your inputs on my old W203. So I've only really done that in top gear, when the response is less noticeable anyway.
Even with a manual, I wouldn't tend to slam the throttle open in a powerful 2wd car in a lower gear, N/A or turbo, I'd feed it in somewhat progressively.
I think the difference in this case is the turbo car has turbo lag, so you open the throttle and the power then surges in even while holding constant throttle. After many years driving turbo cars I developed a subconscious habit of putting my foot down further than necessary and then backing it off again after half a sec or so to approximate a more linear response - I only noticed myself doing this after I started driving an N/A car back to back with a turbo.
The N/A will give you the rate of acceleration instantly as you squeeze the throttle, the turbo has a 'soft' response and then surges in. It's this surge, the sense of the rate of acceleration increasing over time even without you commanding it, that tends to make turbo cars feel exciting, I think.
But yeah, I guess a big N/A, manual or auto with proper manual controls, off throttle and then slam it wide open in the mid-range, you could probably break the rear wheels loose. Or break something in the drivetrain!
Tbh I haven't really done this, because being a Merc my car's auto, so if you lift off it'll change up, and then when you accelerate you get one or more downchanges. It has manual mode, but it tends to ignore your inputs on my old W203. So I've only really done that in top gear, when the response is less noticeable anyway.
Even with a manual, I wouldn't tend to slam the throttle open in a powerful 2wd car in a lower gear, N/A or turbo, I'd feed it in somewhat progressively.
I think the difference in this case is the turbo car has turbo lag, so you open the throttle and the power then surges in even while holding constant throttle. After many years driving turbo cars I developed a subconscious habit of putting my foot down further than necessary and then backing it off again after half a sec or so to approximate a more linear response - I only noticed myself doing this after I started driving an N/A car back to back with a turbo.
The N/A will give you the rate of acceleration instantly as you squeeze the throttle, the turbo has a 'soft' response and then surges in. It's this surge, the sense of the rate of acceleration increasing over time even without you commanding it, that tends to make turbo cars feel exciting, I think.
But yeah, I guess a big N/A, manual or auto with proper manual controls, off throttle and then slam it wide open in the mid-range, you could probably break the rear wheels loose. Or break something in the drivetrain!
thank you for your reply. if anyone has ever had an experience of acceleration to 3000/4000 rpm with a large manual transmission engine, I would appreciate a feedback.
that said, the n/a cars that I have experienced, even more powerful, did not give the thrust or the boost of a turbo car with much less power, whether in recovery or acceleration, regardless of the gearbox speed.
that said, the n/a cars that I have experienced, even more powerful, did not give the thrust or the boost of a turbo car with much less power, whether in recovery or acceleration, regardless of the gearbox speed.
Masegt32 said:
thank you for your reply. if anyone has ever had an experience of acceleration to 3000/4000 rpm with a large manual transmission engine, I would appreciate a feedback.
that said, the n/a cars that I have experienced, even more powerful, did not give the thrust or the boost of a turbo car with much less power, whether in recovery or acceleration, regardless of the gearbox speed.
It really depends how the engine has been designed.that said, the n/a cars that I have experienced, even more powerful, did not give the thrust or the boost of a turbo car with much less power, whether in recovery or acceleration, regardless of the gearbox speed.
A na Honda Vtec won’t thump in the back at 3k rpm, it’s design to deliver power and fizz at 8k rpm.
And old school yank muscle car, will absolutely thump you in the back at 3K rpm. But will start to feel breathless above 4k rpm (pre-modifications).
The spinner of plates said:
Masegt32 said:
thank you for your reply. if anyone has ever had an experience of acceleration to 3000/4000 rpm with a large manual transmission engine, I would appreciate a feedback.
that said, the n/a cars that I have experienced, even more powerful, did not give the thrust or the boost of a turbo car with much less power, whether in recovery or acceleration, regardless of the gearbox speed.
It really depends how the engine has been designed.that said, the n/a cars that I have experienced, even more powerful, did not give the thrust or the boost of a turbo car with much less power, whether in recovery or acceleration, regardless of the gearbox speed.
A na Honda Vtec won’t thump in the back at 3k rpm, it’s design to deliver power and fizz at 8k rpm.
And old school yank muscle car, will absolutely thump you in the back at 3K rpm. But will start to feel breathless above 4k rpm (pre-modifications).
Glenn63 said:
I went Impreza sti - 6.2 c63 - m140. Turbos always ‘feel’ faster, so much so I thought the m140 had been modified and took it to a dyno to see.
The c63 need to use all the revs, you’d be going quickly but didn’t get that shove, the m140 gives a massive thump from 2.5k.
ok, so if I understood correctly, even if you accelerate fully at mid-range in 1st or 2sc gear With thé 6.2 C63, it does not hit like a turbo.The c63 need to use all the revs, you’d be going quickly but didn’t get that shove, the m140 gives a massive thump from 2.5k.
I had a Corvette C5 Z06 5.7 with 405hp.
Linear delivery, no punch in the back, like a turbo.
I also have a 2005 4.6 litre Mustang V8 which had 300hp standard.
Before the supercharger, it was a linear delivery but is a heavier car than the Corvette.
I fitted a supercharger (470hp) to bring it up to similar hp/ton of the Z06 but because it is a centrifugal supercharger, the delivery remains pretty linear throughout.
I got more of a noticable shove from my Mk 7 ST215 which is still bviously a lot slower.
Linear delivery, no punch in the back, like a turbo.
I also have a 2005 4.6 litre Mustang V8 which had 300hp standard.
Before the supercharger, it was a linear delivery but is a heavier car than the Corvette.
I fitted a supercharger (470hp) to bring it up to similar hp/ton of the Z06 but because it is a centrifugal supercharger, the delivery remains pretty linear throughout.
I got more of a noticable shove from my Mk 7 ST215 which is still bviously a lot slower.
I had a W204 C63 in 507 Coupe guise.
Yes, it did give you a "shove" in the back when provoked and you can get any W204 C63 up to the 507 BHP I had in factory spec with a decent tuner removing the breathing restrictions and installing a new map. The power was certainly linear and if you "went for it" off the line it would pull like a train to 150+. I felt the auto box was just a little sluggish when asking for full power at low revs, but if you used manual mode it went very well indeed providing you were in the right gear at the right revs
As mentioned by other replies turbo charged engines are a whole different kettle of fish. The M178 in my AMG GT-R is mind boggling in the acceleration department and never fails to alarm me
Yes, it did give you a "shove" in the back when provoked and you can get any W204 C63 up to the 507 BHP I had in factory spec with a decent tuner removing the breathing restrictions and installing a new map. The power was certainly linear and if you "went for it" off the line it would pull like a train to 150+. I felt the auto box was just a little sluggish when asking for full power at low revs, but if you used manual mode it went very well indeed providing you were in the right gear at the right revs
As mentioned by other replies turbo charged engines are a whole different kettle of fish. The M178 in my AMG GT-R is mind boggling in the acceleration department and never fails to alarm me
It's actually linked to our physiology, summarising the passage below, essentially we react more to changes in acceleration than steady acceleration, so the less linear turbo deliver gives us more of a hit to our senses.
"The human body comes equipped with sensors to sense acceleration and jerk. Located deep inside the ear, integrated into our skulls, lies a series of chambers called the labyrinth. Part of this labyrinth is dedicated to our sense of hearing (the cochlea) and part to our sense of balance (the vestibular system). The vestibular system comes equipped with sensors that detect angular acceleration (the semicircular canals) and sensors that detect linear acceleration (the otoliths). We have two otoliths in each ear — one for detecting acceleration in the horizontal plane (the utricle) and one for detecting acceleration in the vertical place (the saccule). Otoliths are our own built in accelerometers.
The word otolith comes from the Greek οτο (oto) for ear and λιθος (lithos) for stone. Each of our four otoliths consists of a hard bone-like plate attached to a mat of sensory fibers. When the head accelerates, the plate shifts to one side, bending the sensory fibers. This sends a signal to the brain saying "we're accelerating." Since gravity also tugs on the plates, the signal may also mean "this way is down." The brain is quite good at figuring out the difference between the two interpretations. So good, that we tend to ignore it. Sight, sound, smell, taste, touch — where's balance in this list? We ignore it until something changes in an unusual, unexpected, or extreme way.
I've never been in orbit or lived on another planet. Gravity always pulls me down in the same way. Standing, walking, sitting, lying — it's all quite sedate. Now let's hop in a roller coaster or engage in a similarly thrilling activity like downhill skiing, Formula One racing, or cycling in Manhattan traffic. Acceleration is directed first one way, then another. You may even experience brief periods of weightlessness or inversion. These kinds of sensations generate intense mental activity, which is why we like doing them. They also sharpen us up and keep us focused during possibly life ending moments, which is why we evolved this sense in the first place. Your ability to sense jerk is vital to your health and well being. Jerk is both exciting and necessary.
"The human body comes equipped with sensors to sense acceleration and jerk. Located deep inside the ear, integrated into our skulls, lies a series of chambers called the labyrinth. Part of this labyrinth is dedicated to our sense of hearing (the cochlea) and part to our sense of balance (the vestibular system). The vestibular system comes equipped with sensors that detect angular acceleration (the semicircular canals) and sensors that detect linear acceleration (the otoliths). We have two otoliths in each ear — one for detecting acceleration in the horizontal plane (the utricle) and one for detecting acceleration in the vertical place (the saccule). Otoliths are our own built in accelerometers.
The word otolith comes from the Greek οτο (oto) for ear and λιθος (lithos) for stone. Each of our four otoliths consists of a hard bone-like plate attached to a mat of sensory fibers. When the head accelerates, the plate shifts to one side, bending the sensory fibers. This sends a signal to the brain saying "we're accelerating." Since gravity also tugs on the plates, the signal may also mean "this way is down." The brain is quite good at figuring out the difference between the two interpretations. So good, that we tend to ignore it. Sight, sound, smell, taste, touch — where's balance in this list? We ignore it until something changes in an unusual, unexpected, or extreme way.
I've never been in orbit or lived on another planet. Gravity always pulls me down in the same way. Standing, walking, sitting, lying — it's all quite sedate. Now let's hop in a roller coaster or engage in a similarly thrilling activity like downhill skiing, Formula One racing, or cycling in Manhattan traffic. Acceleration is directed first one way, then another. You may even experience brief periods of weightlessness or inversion. These kinds of sensations generate intense mental activity, which is why we like doing them. They also sharpen us up and keep us focused during possibly life ending moments, which is why we evolved this sense in the first place. Your ability to sense jerk is vital to your health and well being. Jerk is both exciting and necessary.
thank you for your experiences.
I who wondered if the big n / a gives a punch in the back similar to a turbo I got my answer. obviously a 500hp c6 zo6 full of torque or a 500hp c63 gives a nice boost I'm sure.
I understand better now why my car feels faster than some more powerful ones and does not fail to hit me when the turbos start!!!
I have a Maserati 3200gt about 400hp and lots of torque, around 2500 rpm the turbos come on and around 3000 rpm they hit hard like old school cars. and I did not find this thrust in any other car n/a v8 or flat 6 etc of medium displacement
I who wondered if the big n / a gives a punch in the back similar to a turbo I got my answer. obviously a 500hp c6 zo6 full of torque or a 500hp c63 gives a nice boost I'm sure.
I understand better now why my car feels faster than some more powerful ones and does not fail to hit me when the turbos start!!!
I have a Maserati 3200gt about 400hp and lots of torque, around 2500 rpm the turbos come on and around 3000 rpm they hit hard like old school cars. and I did not find this thrust in any other car n/a v8 or flat 6 etc of medium displacement
525bhp N/A E63 with MCT double clutch box. In Sport + it is ballastic. Only thing similar to the way it accelerates relentlessly was my V4 Tuono...
The N/A seems to hit a power band and accelerate hard up to the rev limiter.
It is very addictive and naughty, something this lumpy shouldn't go so well...
The N/A seems to hit a power band and accelerate hard up to the rev limiter.
It is very addictive and naughty, something this lumpy shouldn't go so well...
I have a CLS63, and for a car it's size it can take you by surprise but the power is very linear. Pick up is immediate but the revs climb and climb and that's where the sensation comes from. Also, by the time you have a V8 at 5-6k-rpm it's quite something.
I'd say my re-mapped V6 diesels felt more punchy, actually similar or less torque but lower down so felt that shove which comes with a turbo.
I'd say my re-mapped V6 diesels felt more punchy, actually similar or less torque but lower down so felt that shove which comes with a turbo.
The Z06 will properly pin you back it's light weight & that 470lbft will keep you pinned.
The 6.2 in the CLK63 will hold you but won't keep you pinned in the same way as the Z06 although they're similar in BHP/Torque the lighter weight, the fact that peak torque comes in later on the 63 & the transmission losses are less in the Z06 plas the fact it's a manual all add up to a more visceral/brutal sensation from the Corvette.
The 6.2 in the CLK63 will hold you but won't keep you pinned in the same way as the Z06 although they're similar in BHP/Torque the lighter weight, the fact that peak torque comes in later on the 63 & the transmission losses are less in the Z06 plas the fact it's a manual all add up to a more visceral/brutal sensation from the Corvette.
ZX10R NIN said:
The Z06 will properly pin you back it's light weight & that 470lbft will keep you pinned.
The 6.2 in the CLK63 will hold you but won't keep you pinned in the same way as the Z06 although they're similar in BHP/Torque the lighter weight, the fact that peak torque comes in later on the 63 & the transmission losses are less in the Z06 plas the fact it's a manual all add up to a more visceral/brutal sensation from the Corvette.
The 6.2 in the CLK63 will hold you but won't keep you pinned in the same way as the Z06 although they're similar in BHP/Torque the lighter weight, the fact that peak torque comes in later on the 63 & the transmission losses are less in the Z06 plas the fact it's a manual all add up to a more visceral/brutal sensation from the Corvette.
yes I understand, the zo6 c6 pushes you into the seat like a turbo surge or is it less strong and raw?
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