GT Purely Porsche
Discussion
I brought this months issue mainly because it had a comparison test of the 968CS, 911 ClubSport and 964RS.
Basically the results from the test were:
1st - 968CS
2nd - 911CS
3rd - 964RS
Now, i know the 968CS and 911CS have supposed to be great cars, and i would have been able to accept those results if they didn't say this about the 964RS:
Now this pretty much goes against allot of what i have heard about the 964RS - i remember when evo done their 911 supertest, one of their journalists said that he was able to gradually reel in a hard-driven, flame spitting 959, on a twisty bit of road, driving a 964RS.
So does that mean a family saloon could beat a 959 in the twisties? methinks not somehow!
I know 964RS suspension has supposed to be hard and uncompromising, but this bloke really seems to make out as though it is completely flawed on anything but a track.
Is this bloke a soft pansy who cant take hard suspension? or is he trying to stop people from buying 964RS' so the prices stop going up?
Answers on a postcard please.
Basically the results from the test were:
1st - 968CS
2nd - 911CS
3rd - 964RS
Now, i know the 968CS and 911CS have supposed to be great cars, and i would have been able to accept those results if they didn't say this about the 964RS:
As for the 964 RS, although it is a better car than the others, its awesome on track performance just does not translate on to the Road.
The joy of its involving, exhilarating track manners is turned into utter frustration by its inablilty to tackle everyday roads. That frustration is compounded with the knowledge that an average family saloon could probably slice down country roads faster than a £30,000 sports car
Now this pretty much goes against allot of what i have heard about the 964RS - i remember when evo done their 911 supertest, one of their journalists said that he was able to gradually reel in a hard-driven, flame spitting 959, on a twisty bit of road, driving a 964RS.
So does that mean a family saloon could beat a 959 in the twisties? methinks not somehow!
I know 964RS suspension has supposed to be hard and uncompromising, but this bloke really seems to make out as though it is completely flawed on anything but a track.
Is this bloke a soft pansy who cant take hard suspension? or is he trying to stop people from buying 964RS' so the prices stop going up?
Answers on a postcard please.
I am an annual subscriber to 911 & PW. I gave the GT Porsche magazine a chance by buying the first couple of issues. What you have just posted confirms to me that I made the right decision in dropping it. It's a bit to coffee tableish for me and thats not even going into the quality of the articles.
I can almost understand the uninitiated driver preferring the 968CS, being fearful of the engine hanging out past the rear wheels of the other two. But a 911CS in preference to a 964RS? Get fcuking real.
DAZ
No offence to 911CS drivers. I like all 911s.
I can almost understand the uninitiated driver preferring the 968CS, being fearful of the engine hanging out past the rear wheels of the other two. But a 911CS in preference to a 964RS? Get fcuking real.
DAZ
No offence to 911CS drivers. I like all 911s.
The only thing GT Porsche has going for it is the pretty pictures. The 'insight' is garnered by borrowing cars for ten minutes then regurgitating what Paul Frere could tell you much more quickly, with a 'Janet and John' angle.
The fact is that except for the 993GT2, the 964RS is probably the *most* unuseable Porsche on real roads, but is also one of the most rewarding. It is like those cabrio tests where they mark the Caterham down for having a popper roof!
It takes a lot of skill and time to come close to mastering a 964RS in all conditions (more than I have at the moment), and I can testify that they are a challenge in the wet (to put it mildly
). On bumpy roads, it would be uncomfortable to drive one flat out, but not impossible. It would also be quite dangerous and unrewarding.
To drive one on A-roads, smooth B-roads and racetracks is a different matter. This is why Evo rated it so well - they basically said that from A-B the 964RS would still be glued to the rump of the 959 - and that is the point. On an A-B journey you normally have enough A-roads and smooth surfaces to allow a fair turn of speed.
If the test was 'most useable lightweight Porsche in all conditions' the other two deserve their place. If it is was about 'the most rewarding, effective and quickest lightweight Porsche in the conditions that matter' then the 964RS would have spanked their rumps until they were a shade of Guard's Red.
All in my unbiased
opinion, of course
Cheers
Domster
The fact is that except for the 993GT2, the 964RS is probably the *most* unuseable Porsche on real roads, but is also one of the most rewarding. It is like those cabrio tests where they mark the Caterham down for having a popper roof!
It takes a lot of skill and time to come close to mastering a 964RS in all conditions (more than I have at the moment), and I can testify that they are a challenge in the wet (to put it mildly
). On bumpy roads, it would be uncomfortable to drive one flat out, but not impossible. It would also be quite dangerous and unrewarding. To drive one on A-roads, smooth B-roads and racetracks is a different matter. This is why Evo rated it so well - they basically said that from A-B the 964RS would still be glued to the rump of the 959 - and that is the point. On an A-B journey you normally have enough A-roads and smooth surfaces to allow a fair turn of speed.
If the test was 'most useable lightweight Porsche in all conditions' the other two deserve their place. If it is was about 'the most rewarding, effective and quickest lightweight Porsche in the conditions that matter' then the 964RS would have spanked their rumps until they were a shade of Guard's Red.
All in my unbiased
opinion, of course Cheers
Domster
Actually considering the crap that they usually spout out in GT that sentance does not suprise me. However for once what they have written is not total crap.
A standard 964RS like Domsters which is set on the top of the adjusters & without agressive camber settings is about as soft as the standard set up gets and far softer than some RS's Ive driven, yet it is still is a bit of a handfull on a bumpy Uk B road.
Get one set on the bottom of the adusters ie it is lower, and give it a bit more negative camber and it is worse. If the car is the even stiffer (because of the fully welded in rollcage) Clubsport and set to lowest spec & a bit of neg camber, I do agree with the GT sentance, as I have had many twitchy moments in a Clubsport on B roads particually in the wet and even one (thankfully) no impact spin and on these roads with my own (reasonably good I like to think)skill level I would have been quicker in my own elderly hot hatch. On less bumpy, open & dry roads however, I wouldnt even be in the same time zone as the RS dissappeared into the distance.
The reeling in the 959 piece was in EVO and I did think that statement suprising but again maybe that car was set high on the adjusters and may even have had non standard springs or 993RS front shocks ( I think Colin B knows that car so he may be able to shed some light)
In comparison with all other sporty 911s ie '73RS, 3.2CS, 993RS, the 964 is without doubt the most track focussed and hardest suspension on the road ( although the hardest is ment to be the 993GT2 but ive not driven one so I cant comment)
A standard 964RS like Domsters which is set on the top of the adjusters & without agressive camber settings is about as soft as the standard set up gets and far softer than some RS's Ive driven, yet it is still is a bit of a handfull on a bumpy Uk B road.
Get one set on the bottom of the adusters ie it is lower, and give it a bit more negative camber and it is worse. If the car is the even stiffer (because of the fully welded in rollcage) Clubsport and set to lowest spec & a bit of neg camber, I do agree with the GT sentance, as I have had many twitchy moments in a Clubsport on B roads particually in the wet and even one (thankfully) no impact spin and on these roads with my own (reasonably good I like to think)skill level I would have been quicker in my own elderly hot hatch. On less bumpy, open & dry roads however, I wouldnt even be in the same time zone as the RS dissappeared into the distance.
The reeling in the 959 piece was in EVO and I did think that statement suprising but again maybe that car was set high on the adjusters and may even have had non standard springs or 993RS front shocks ( I think Colin B knows that car so he may be able to shed some light)
In comparison with all other sporty 911s ie '73RS, 3.2CS, 993RS, the 964 is without doubt the most track focussed and hardest suspension on the road ( although the hardest is ment to be the 993GT2 but ive not driven one so I cant comment)
Tell you what Domst, I took the black 'un oot fer a gentle stroll heir soir and hell fire!
It was precipitous in the extreme and leaves were everywhere. On roads that normally submit to speeds not dissimilar to Shuttle take offs, they were now laughing out loud as yours truly attempted to push the envelope that man had ne'er dared...beyond about, ooh, 50mph?
Indeed, combined with almost zero visibility, an Imp of the Hillmanic variety would have left me for dead, much less your gallant Baron Rouge.
At one point, I went round a sharp left hooker at no more than 20mph; holy Jeremiah - the angle attained was the work of Uncle Pythagarus and God knows how it got back into shape.
As I meekly trundled back to the asylum I pondered how a modern 996TT would have handled things? Illuminating stuff. Having said that, I've been beetling to and fro recently and it's quite feasible for the urban crawl; I just hope for dryness at night then I can thump it en route chez moi.
Bibble.
It was precipitous in the extreme and leaves were everywhere. On roads that normally submit to speeds not dissimilar to Shuttle take offs, they were now laughing out loud as yours truly attempted to push the envelope that man had ne'er dared...beyond about, ooh, 50mph?
Indeed, combined with almost zero visibility, an Imp of the Hillmanic variety would have left me for dead, much less your gallant Baron Rouge.
At one point, I went round a sharp left hooker at no more than 20mph; holy Jeremiah - the angle attained was the work of Uncle Pythagarus and God knows how it got back into shape.
As I meekly trundled back to the asylum I pondered how a modern 996TT would have handled things? Illuminating stuff. Having said that, I've been beetling to and fro recently and it's quite feasible for the urban crawl; I just hope for dryness at night then I can thump it en route chez moi.
Bibble.
Derestrictor said: Tell you what Domst, I took the black 'un oot fer a gentle stroll heir soir and hell fire!
It was precipitous in the extreme and leaves were everywhere. On roads that normally submit to speeds not dissimilar to Shuttle take offs, they were now laughing out loud as yours truly attempted to push the envelope that man had ne'er dared...beyond about, ooh, 50mph?
Indeed, combined with almost zero visibility, an Imp of the Hillmanic variety would have left me for dead, much less your gallant Baron Rouge.
At one point, I went round a sharp left hooker at no more than 20mph; holy Jeremiah - the angle attained was the work of Uncle Pythagarus and God knows how it got back into shape.
As I meekly trundled back to the asylum I pondered how a modern 996TT would have handled things? Illuminating stuff. Having said that, I've been beetling to and fro recently and it's quite feasible for the urban crawl; I just hope for dryness at night then I can thump it en route chez moi.
Bibble.
There's a moral to that story, young 'un.
Weather and supercars rarely mix. I had a sideways experience in the wedding car last Tuesday. Amazing given that it has ASR,ESP,BAS,ABS,GOOJF (Get Out of Jail Free), still, give it a large dose of right hoof out of a roundabout and it will make you look a right charlie.
Red faces all round. McD possee looking down cheered (as they queued for their breakfasts). Meekly drove on, but turned off the ASR before pulling off, only to smoke the rears for my sudden audience. Thanguvermuchgoonight!
I have a theory that the quickest car down many of Britains shockingly poorly maintained roads will shortly be a Jeep/RangeRover/Landcrusier.
Reason being that in town speed bumps, sleeping policemen, and traffic calming can safely be ignored as the suspension will soak up anything that might otherwise wake the driver back up....
And out in the country where potholes and ruts abound it'll soak that lot up too.
So they don't go around corners. So what? Sounds like the GT guy should try out a 4WD he'd probably like it. Me...I'll wait for another go in Domster's Red Baron.
Reason being that in town speed bumps, sleeping policemen, and traffic calming can safely be ignored as the suspension will soak up anything that might otherwise wake the driver back up....
And out in the country where potholes and ruts abound it'll soak that lot up too.
So they don't go around corners. So what? Sounds like the GT guy should try out a 4WD he'd probably like it. Me...I'll wait for another go in Domster's Red Baron.
I look forward to reading the article....i had a 911 Cs for 2 1/2 years and considered a 964 RS before I bought it.
I was very happy with my choice,I was always impressed with the value of RS as a track day car particularly when on C compound cars but feel it is too compromised as an all rounder which is probably the conclusion the magazine arrived at.
I am looking for a decent 968 at the moment and hope to learn how to drive one well...The thing I never quite grasp in these comparisons is that clearly a 911 has it's characteristics that you can only appreciate after a good few miles under your tyres.A 968 will offer a completely different take on things...Not that it isn't a Porsche but it is not a 911.
I was very happy with my choice,I was always impressed with the value of RS as a track day car particularly when on C compound cars but feel it is too compromised as an all rounder which is probably the conclusion the magazine arrived at.
I am looking for a decent 968 at the moment and hope to learn how to drive one well...The thing I never quite grasp in these comparisons is that clearly a 911 has it's characteristics that you can only appreciate after a good few miles under your tyres.A 968 will offer a completely different take on things...Not that it isn't a Porsche but it is not a 911.
Don said: I have a theory that the quickest car down many of Britains shockingly poorly maintained roads will shortly be a Jeep/RangeRover/Landcrusier.
Reason being that in town speed bumps, sleeping policemen, and traffic calming can safely be ignored as the suspension will soak up anything that might otherwise wake the driver back up....
And out in the country where potholes and ruts abound it'll soak that lot up too.
So they don't go around corners. So what? Sounds like the GT guy should try out a 4WD he'd probably like it. Me...I'll wait for another go in Domster's Red Baron.
Don, have a sit beside Daz in his 450bhp 996Turbo on the soaking wet & bumpy B roads that we had in Berks/Hants for our little get together the other weekend, the bupy roads & torrential rains do not have to mean going slowly!!!
No need for an off roader when Porsche already make a fantastic all weather supercar. Get back in your box Cayenne you are not needed here................
domster said: Bibble indeed.
You are a wise and entertaining monkey, my Northern Kommandant
You sound like Christopher Walken playing a disgruntled and somewhat crest fallen Gabriel referring to mankind in that great flick, The Prophecy.
Well, the bit about monkeys, I mean.
On the other hand, you could be referring to that other cultural milestone, Monkey, in which case I'll take it as a veiled compliment.
Alternatively, a sort of WWI style battle may have to commence from which honour can be satisfied.
On second thoughts, since you're an RS fruitcake and me but a lardy TT quaffer, I think I'll relent while I'm only vaguely losing...
I was so moved by said article I even wrote to the editor. The first paragraph of said article states that it was "not about praticality" and had nothing to do "with comfort". Then it blabs on about how hard the RS's suspension is!
And the bit about the car aquaplaning of the road, what a load of rubbish, any car with nine inch wide rear wheels is going to have a hard time on a sheet of water. Then he goes on to say that the car could easily throw of the road. I honestly don't think the guy drove the car. As for B roads i will save my fun for a nice flat SAFE track.
And the bit about the car aquaplaning of the road, what a load of rubbish, any car with nine inch wide rear wheels is going to have a hard time on a sheet of water. Then he goes on to say that the car could easily throw of the road. I honestly don't think the guy drove the car. As for B roads i will save my fun for a nice flat SAFE track.
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