B17 ball gunner

[Ayahuasca]

From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

“The Death of the Ball Gunner” by a Randall Jarrell

Must have been horrific at the best of times squeezed into that thing for hours and hours in the freezing cold. Getting out if the bomber was shot down would be difficult, and if the landing gear failed and the ball became jammed the landing does not bear thinking about.

Hard to comprehend their mental fortitude.

[Dr Jekyll]

Not sure how accurate this is. But I read that the gunner could get in and out in flight so would generally be in the fuselage for the beginning and end of the journey. If the hydraulics failed there was a manual procedure to release the gunner, but obviously not practical if the aircraft was going down out of control.

The ball gunner actually had a slightly higher chance of survival than the tail gunner, and there is some dispute about how often the 'stuck in the turret during a belly landing' scenario really occurred.

[Ayahuasca]

It’s not just the actuality of it happening, it’s the thought that it could happen. I suppose they learned to block out such thoughts.

[some bloke]

I read an account a few years ago of a B17 coming back from a raid, all shot up. The lid on the ball turret was jammed up and the crew couldn't get it open. The plane was low on fuel with injured crew and the undercarriage out of action, so the uninjured guys jumped out over the airfield, and the pilot belly landed it, grinding the gunner to a pulp.

[Eric Mc]

The B-24 had the same turret.

[Yertis]

The ball turret on a B24, as you'll remember from your Airfix kit, is retractable.

[5 In a Row]

I assume that the guy getting into the ball turret in the photo is showing how it was done but in reality they would use that method from inside when it was retracted and then the turret lowered post take off?

[bristolracer]

The noise when firing, the choking fumes.

What were the statistics? Shot down within 10 missions?

Respect to all of them

[aeropilot]

5 In a Row said:

I assume that the guy getting into the ball turret in the photo is showing how it was done but in reality they would use that method from inside when it was retracted and then the turret lowered post take off?

That hatch was in the vertical once the aircraft was in the air (guns pointing straight down) so the gunner could get down into the ball from inside the fuselage as mentioned (not retractable on a Fort) and if the turret jammed in flight, as long as it wasn't jammed when pointing downwards, that hatch could be released, and the gunner could then fall out the back and parachute to safety...........all fine in theory of course.
No idea how many ever escaped that way or not, not many I would think.

The top turret position wasn't too bad (as I know from flying in a B-17 and being in the top turret) but sod being the ball or tail gunner......neither was a position for someone that suffered from claustrophobia!!

[FourWheelDrift]

Dr Jekyll said:

Not sure how accurate this is. But I read that the gunner could get in and out in flight so would generally be in the fuselage for the beginning and end of the journey.

Accurately portrayed in the film Memphis Belle.

[croyde]

Jeez, just looking at that diagram is making me panic.

I knew they were cramped but not in such an unusual position.

[aeropilot]

There is a working version over in the USA, that has working fifties, that you could have a go with at the famous Big Sandy machine gun shoot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_TaK0WZj2k

[Dr Jekyll]

It doesn't look as though they had room to wear a parachute in the ball turret.

[Ayahuasca]

aeropilot said:

5 In a Row said:

I assume that the guy getting into the ball turret in the photo is showing how it was done but in reality they would use that method from inside when it was retracted and then the turret lowered post take off?

That hatch was in the vertical once the aircraft was in the air (guns pointing straight down) so the gunner could get down into the ball from inside the fuselage as mentioned (not retractable on a Fort) and if the turret jammed in flight, as long as it wasn't jammed when pointing downwards, that hatch could be released, and the gunner could then fall out the back and parachute to safety...........all fine in theory of course.
No idea how many ever escaped that way or not, not many I would think.

The top turret position wasn't too bad (as I know from flying in a B-17 and being in the top turret) but sod being the ball or tail gunner......neither was a position for someone that suffered from claustrophobia!!

Would they be wearing their parachutes in the ball ? Not a lot of room in there.

[Bilkob]

and nearly all of them just kids. Europe must have seemed like a million miles away to them, warm beer, dark and cold, then strapped into that and shot at. They’d have left New York or California, or Wyoming, or anywhere, to fight for a freedom that didn’t really affect them. Seems astonishing now………

[aeropilot]

Dr Jekyll said:

It doesn't look as though they had room to wear a parachute in the ball turret.

There technically was, but most of the gunners found it too uncomfortable, so choose not wear them in the turret.

Bugger that.

[Yertis]

No wonder the B29 had the remotely operated turrets, although weren't B29s pressurised? Maybe it was more to do with that.

[Eric Mc]

Yertis said:

The ball turret on a B24, as you'll remember from your Airfix kit, is retractable.

I never built a 1/72 B-24.

[aeropilot]

Yertis said:

No wonder the B29 had the remotely operated turrets, although weren't B29s pressurised? Maybe it was more to do with that.

Yep, it was pressurised. Well, the front and rear cabins were, plus the interconnecting tube tunnel that any crew had to crawl through to get from front to back or back to front, which went over the top of the bomb bay area, which of course could not be pressurised.

[Eric Mc]

Yertis said:

No wonder the B29 had the remotely operated turrets, although weren't B29s pressurised? Maybe it was more to do with that.

They were pressurised. There was a manned tail gunner position and he had to use a pressurised tunnel to get to the tail of the aircraft.