Plug In Hybrid questions - from a Tesla Model 3
Discussion
Hi all,
A question that hopefully someone can help with...
Are plug in hybrids the best of both worlds? Or the least-worst option?
We have a Tesla Model 3, and before that had a BMW i3, so been driving electric for 6+ years. The Model 3 lease is due to end next March and to extend is going to cost more(!) and the new leases are crazy.
Anyway, as the kids are getting older we're looking to do some camping next year, and ideally some in Europe, so I thought maybe take the retrograde step back to a plug in hybrid. This morning I test drove a G31 BMW 330e, thinking touring, space etc. The BMW does lose a lot of space, so will check out the VW stable, namely Skoda Octavia and Cupra Leon.
In theory, given its school runs and to the shops etc, we could run in full EV - but something that occured with the BMW was above 67mph the ICE kicks in, and my mum is about 40 miles away and mostly A roads and motorway, so it would pretty much be ICE for those journeys.
Do any PHEV's do a decent speed (i.e. 70
) on EV only? And do any offer decent regen? i.e. you can drive using one pedal like a full EV?
Or do we just stick with the Model 3, suck up the cost and just have a decent charging network?
Any opinions welcome
ETA - Also thinking Volvo V60 T8 - not sure what other options there are for PHEV's that aren't SUVs (don't ask).
A question that hopefully someone can help with...
Are plug in hybrids the best of both worlds? Or the least-worst option?
We have a Tesla Model 3, and before that had a BMW i3, so been driving electric for 6+ years. The Model 3 lease is due to end next March and to extend is going to cost more(!) and the new leases are crazy.
Anyway, as the kids are getting older we're looking to do some camping next year, and ideally some in Europe, so I thought maybe take the retrograde step back to a plug in hybrid. This morning I test drove a G31 BMW 330e, thinking touring, space etc. The BMW does lose a lot of space, so will check out the VW stable, namely Skoda Octavia and Cupra Leon.
In theory, given its school runs and to the shops etc, we could run in full EV - but something that occured with the BMW was above 67mph the ICE kicks in, and my mum is about 40 miles away and mostly A roads and motorway, so it would pretty much be ICE for those journeys.
Do any PHEV's do a decent speed (i.e. 70
) on EV only? And do any offer decent regen? i.e. you can drive using one pedal like a full EV?Or do we just stick with the Model 3, suck up the cost and just have a decent charging network?
Any opinions welcome
ETA - Also thinking Volvo V60 T8 - not sure what other options there are for PHEV's that aren't SUVs (don't ask).
Edited by RemarkLima on Thursday 24th November 16:22
We have 2 PHEV.
For the Ford Kuga PHEV for a journey of up to 30 miles it is quite difficult to keep it in exclusively EV mode.
For the Mini Countryman PHEV for a journey of up to 30 miles it is more easy to keep it exclusively in EV mode.
Sometimes either vehicle may simply refuse to use EV possibly due to environmental reasons.
The Ford Kuga PHEV is by far the better vehicle all round.
For the Ford Kuga PHEV for a journey of up to 30 miles it is quite difficult to keep it in exclusively EV mode.
For the Mini Countryman PHEV for a journey of up to 30 miles it is more easy to keep it exclusively in EV mode.
Sometimes either vehicle may simply refuse to use EV possibly due to environmental reasons.
The Ford Kuga PHEV is by far the better vehicle all round.
RemarkLima said:
Thanks all - I guess on a 70 mph if the car is dipping in and out of ICE then it'll be more efficient than just running a 2l petrol?
It's a tricky one, as not sure if it's just a compromise over either just an ICE or an EV?
We had ours for about 2 years. For us it was a great car (although I prefer our Model Y now). A lot of our driving is short range. We charged the Passat at home and did the vast majority of our driving in EV mode. The car did get a long run to Disneyland Paris and back (from Harrogate). It made it back on one tank of petrol which I thought was pretty good.It's a tricky one, as not sure if it's just a compromise over either just an ICE or an EV?
If you do mostly motorway miles/longer journeys it's probably not the best choice. It's not going to regen much as you don't brake much. So it's mostly just going to be using the petrol engine. If it's got a smaller, efficient petrol with the EV side helping fill in on acceleration it might be OK but on the motorway it's not going to be that different to a similar non-PHEV. Of course it's heavier.
Around town/running on pure EV mode is where you win.
The Golf GTE I had could do 81mph on electric, I think the other VAG 1.4 PHEVs are the same. Range wouldn't last long though.
It certainly could be used as a short-range BEV for local trips, you wouldn't get the engine starting unless you floored it to the kickdown switch so easy to use all the power. Electric heating (albeit inefficient) and it could pre-heat from battery too. Not all offer those things, some will run the engine at the slightest provocation or call for heat. Adjustable regen, maximum not as much as i3 or Nissan e-pedal though. It could auto-hold the brake so in traffic you just needed a little to come to a complete stop then foot could go back on the accelerator.
Generally seemed quite efficient on petrol for long trips - it's still getting regen when you slow, and you can manage the battery to some extent - I'd keep 10 miles back so in a M25 traffic jam you can keep the engine off. Ultimately though if you end the journey with an empty battery it didn't seem to matter much how you used it.
Main reasons not to go back for me are how they drive. Quite heavy, not a lot of electric power. Fine for in traffic, 30mph sort of stuff but even going to an eGolf after it much perkier. That electric drive is also going through the DSG gearbox so it's still doing the clutch takeup and changing up/down in case the engine needs to start. It's a bit odd, mostly handles it fine, but driving direct drive BEVs after was like night and day.
I'd only consider one if we downsized to one car and needed to tow. Would probably look at the Passat GTE or Outlander PHEV for that.
It certainly could be used as a short-range BEV for local trips, you wouldn't get the engine starting unless you floored it to the kickdown switch so easy to use all the power. Electric heating (albeit inefficient) and it could pre-heat from battery too. Not all offer those things, some will run the engine at the slightest provocation or call for heat. Adjustable regen, maximum not as much as i3 or Nissan e-pedal though. It could auto-hold the brake so in traffic you just needed a little to come to a complete stop then foot could go back on the accelerator.
Generally seemed quite efficient on petrol for long trips - it's still getting regen when you slow, and you can manage the battery to some extent - I'd keep 10 miles back so in a M25 traffic jam you can keep the engine off. Ultimately though if you end the journey with an empty battery it didn't seem to matter much how you used it.
Main reasons not to go back for me are how they drive. Quite heavy, not a lot of electric power. Fine for in traffic, 30mph sort of stuff but even going to an eGolf after it much perkier. That electric drive is also going through the DSG gearbox so it's still doing the clutch takeup and changing up/down in case the engine needs to start. It's a bit odd, mostly handles it fine, but driving direct drive BEVs after was like night and day.
I'd only consider one if we downsized to one car and needed to tow. Would probably look at the Passat GTE or Outlander PHEV for that.
The problem with a PHEV is that when the battery runs out you are lugging around a very heavy battery with an average size engine usually so end up using quite a bit of fuel.
They can work for some where most travel is shorter distances but if you are going longer distances on a regular basis a HEV could work out better.
They can work for some where most travel is shorter distances but if you are going longer distances on a regular basis a HEV could work out better.
RemarkLima said:
H
Anyway, as the kids are getting older we're looking to do some camping next year, and ideally some in Europe, so I thought maybe take the retrograde step back to a plug in hybrid. This morning I test drove a G31 BMW 330e, thinking touring, space etc. The BMW does lose a lot of space, so will check out the VW stable, namely Skoda Octavia and Cupra Leon.
In theory, given its school runs and to the shops etc, we could run in full EV - but something that occured with the BMW was above 67mph the ICE kicks in, and my mum is about 40 miles away and mostly A roads and motorway, so it would pretty much be ICE for those journeys.
Assume you mean a G21 (G31 is a 5 series)Anyway, as the kids are getting older we're looking to do some camping next year, and ideally some in Europe, so I thought maybe take the retrograde step back to a plug in hybrid. This morning I test drove a G31 BMW 330e, thinking touring, space etc. The BMW does lose a lot of space, so will check out the VW stable, namely Skoda Octavia and Cupra Leon.
In theory, given its school runs and to the shops etc, we could run in full EV - but something that occured with the BMW was above 67mph the ICE kicks in, and my mum is about 40 miles away and mostly A roads and motorway, so it would pretty much be ICE for those journeys.
You probably had it in Hybrid mode, where it will move over to the engine before 70, if you have it manually selected in Electric it should do 85 (as most PHEV now do)
In my opinion, this generation of PHEV you are mentioning are not the best of both worlds.
In this size range, the Mercedes C class is now the next generation, it's got a huge battery, and can be fast charged like a proper EV.
If your usage pattern fits they're the best of both, if it doesn't they're the worst.
I have a Cupra Leon PHEV estate.
Wanting an estate severely limits the choice in full EVs.
My usage pattern is mostly short (<10mile) journeys so I do most mileage on electic. My longer journeys are generally either Cornwall or The Lakes in school holidays. I wouldn't fancy either of those in an EV yet.
I have a Cupra Leon PHEV estate.
Wanting an estate severely limits the choice in full EVs.
My usage pattern is mostly short (<10mile) journeys so I do most mileage on electic. My longer journeys are generally either Cornwall or The Lakes in school holidays. I wouldn't fancy either of those in an EV yet.
As most runs are short, we could do 70% on EV world only... But as we often do an 80 mile round trip to my mum's, and we could charge there, it would be nice to do both way either in EV or mostly EV.
Yes, saw the C class is a much longer range and seems to be a bit more serious on the EV world, so maybe as you say need to wait for the next gen... Or either renew the Model 3, or more to get the additional load space... Go into Crossover land (eek!) and go check out the Model Y.
Through the company, the Model Y is cheaper over both a new Model 3 and also cheaper than extending our current lease on the Model 3 which seems crazy. I'm getting the feeling that a PHEV will feel like a step backwards from a BEV...
I like estates but I appear to be in a minority
JD said:
Assume you mean a G21 (G31 is a 5 series)
You probably had it in Hybrid mode, where it will move over to the engine before 70, if you have it manually selected in Electric it should do 85 (as most PHEV now do)
In my opinion, this generation of PHEV you are mentioning are not the best of both worlds.
In this size range, the Mercedes C class is now the next generation, it's got a huge battery, and can be fast charged like a proper EV.
Yes, probably G21 then. The sales guy was saying he had one and sat at 67 mph in cruise control to keep it in EV mode? But I hear you.You probably had it in Hybrid mode, where it will move over to the engine before 70, if you have it manually selected in Electric it should do 85 (as most PHEV now do)
In my opinion, this generation of PHEV you are mentioning are not the best of both worlds.
In this size range, the Mercedes C class is now the next generation, it's got a huge battery, and can be fast charged like a proper EV.
Yes, saw the C class is a much longer range and seems to be a bit more serious on the EV world, so maybe as you say need to wait for the next gen... Or either renew the Model 3, or more to get the additional load space... Go into Crossover land (eek!) and go check out the Model Y.
Through the company, the Model Y is cheaper over both a new Model 3 and also cheaper than extending our current lease on the Model 3 which seems crazy. I'm getting the feeling that a PHEV will feel like a step backwards from a BEV...
I like estates but I appear to be in a minority
We currently have a Passat GTE Advance Estate alongside a Model 3 Performance, and yea, it’ll do 70mph on EV only, but the range will be that poor it’s not worth it.
The Passat spends most days round town doing school run duties and suchlike in EV only, but we do use it over the M3P for holidays (usually North Devon). For those trips it always stays in hybrid mode and typically returns 60mpg~ for the journey down/back, we tend to get away with EV only running whilst down there.
We are probably going to look to replace it with the new V60 as it’s usable EV range is great for a PHEV, it really will mean that the only time we use the engine will be motorway jaunts.
The Passat spends most days round town doing school run duties and suchlike in EV only, but we do use it over the M3P for holidays (usually North Devon). For those trips it always stays in hybrid mode and typically returns 60mpg~ for the journey down/back, we tend to get away with EV only running whilst down there.
We are probably going to look to replace it with the new V60 as it’s usable EV range is great for a PHEV, it really will mean that the only time we use the engine will be motorway jaunts.
I suggest you look at the Mercedes E300de estate. Being a diesel hybrid it combines the best of both worlds. I have covered 40,000 miles in mine over the past 2 years and it is perfect for my 66 mile day commute, plus longer work trips. It averages over 100mpg+ with a charge and 50mpg+ without. Its fast, comfortable, handles well and isn't an SUV!
RemarkLima said:
Anyway, as the kids are getting older we're looking to do some camping next year, and ideally some in Europe
Driving in Europe in a Tesla is so easy, much easier than the UK. There are now so many SCs last summer in our Norway trip I didn't even bother with destination charging!Excluding COVID I think I've taken our X to Europe every summer since getting it. Heading to Lake Como next year via Stelivo
.The cost is a different matter though, without 'free' SC, the Norway trip would have cost some £500 in charging costs. Not life changing sums of money, but it would have been no cheaper than driving and almost certainly makes me think twice about taking the car vs fly and rent.
Current Tesla pricing of new cars is utterly bonkers, we cancelled our 3 order years ago because the price/cost made no sense to have one as a second car that does 3k miles a year. Prices now are almost 25-30% more, absolutely no chance we can justify swapping into a Tesla now based on ££££ cost.
At the same time though buying another combustion engined car now seems just as mad/waste of money. Spending £50-60k on a new purchase as the main family car we would still go EV plenty of choices around these days.
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 25th November 07:08
dmsims said:
somouk said:
The problem with a PHEV is that when the battery runs out you are lugging around a very heavy battery with an average size engine usually so end up using quite a bit of fuel.
Care to quantify that (bulls
t) ?Why would it be bulls
t? Battery only range on the G21 330e is very limited (especially at higher speeds and in winter weather), and once depleted you're driving a car that weighs 250KG more than the equivelant petrol, hence it'll be less efficient when running on ICE alone.Extra weight doesn't cause more fuel consumption at a steady speed, only during acceleration, so whilst 250KG is a penalty, I'd imagine most of the time the ICE is being used at its most efficient phase.
That said, it does seem like a lot of compromises over a pure BEV...
To extend our lease by other year is more expensive than getting a new Model Y on the same deal!? How does that work??? But as you say, supercharging isn't cheap. But any public charging isn't cheap and even home charging isn't the cheap good it once was.
However, I do feel like getting out of the lease thing (even though it's via a company) as it's a bit weird... That said, sinking 60k into a depreciating asset, with a potential crash in used prices (who knows!?). I guess until the next gen of PHEV comes along, with 60+ miles range and decent regen, it'll always feel more like an ICE than an EV, and that does feel like a backwards step?
As a point of note, "my" car is a 997 911, so old, noisy and all that... I could go very sensible and just get the family wagon, but I'd be loath to sell it, and then do "my" miles in a dull box.
That said, it does seem like a lot of compromises over a pure BEV...
gangzoom said:
Driving in Europe in a Tesla is so easy, much easier than the UK. There are now so many SCs last summer in our Norway trip I didn't even bother with destination charging!
Excluding COVID I think I've taken our X to Europe every summer since getting it. Heading to Lake Como next year via Stelivo.
The cost is a different matter though, without 'free' SC, the Norway trip would have cost some £500 in charging costs. Not life changing sums of money, but it would have been no cheaper than driving and almost certainly makes me think twice about taking the car vs fly and rent.
Current Tesla pricing of new cars is utterly bonkers, we cancelled our 3 order years ago because the price/cost made no sense to have one as a second car that does 3k miles a year. Prices now are almost 25-30% more, absolutely no chance we can justify swapping into a Tesla now based on ££££ cost.
At the same time though buying another combustion engined car now seems just as mad/waste of money. Spending £50-60k on a new purchase as the main family car we would still go EV plenty of choices around these days.
That's really interesting... The issue with our Model 3 is that it's not a hatchback, so by the time you get a tent in there, it's getting tight on space... We may look at a Model Y on this basis, but as you say, all pricing is completely nuts!Excluding COVID I think I've taken our X to Europe every summer since getting it. Heading to Lake Como next year via Stelivo
.The cost is a different matter though, without 'free' SC, the Norway trip would have cost some £500 in charging costs. Not life changing sums of money, but it would have been no cheaper than driving and almost certainly makes me think twice about taking the car vs fly and rent.
Current Tesla pricing of new cars is utterly bonkers, we cancelled our 3 order years ago because the price/cost made no sense to have one as a second car that does 3k miles a year. Prices now are almost 25-30% more, absolutely no chance we can justify swapping into a Tesla now based on ££££ cost.
At the same time though buying another combustion engined car now seems just as mad/waste of money. Spending £50-60k on a new purchase as the main family car we would still go EV plenty of choices around these days.
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 25th November 07:08
To extend our lease by other year is more expensive than getting a new Model Y on the same deal!? How does that work??? But as you say, supercharging isn't cheap. But any public charging isn't cheap and even home charging isn't the cheap good it once was.
However, I do feel like getting out of the lease thing (even though it's via a company) as it's a bit weird... That said, sinking 60k into a depreciating asset, with a potential crash in used prices (who knows!?). I guess until the next gen of PHEV comes along, with 60+ miles range and decent regen, it'll always feel more like an ICE than an EV, and that does feel like a backwards step?
As a point of note, "my" car is a 997 911, so old, noisy and all that... I could go very sensible and just get the family wagon, but I'd be loath to sell it, and then do "my" miles in a dull box.
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