Halo models based on under-appreciated cars
Discussion
The Megane R26.R thread reminded me of a recurring theme in my motoring experience: limited-edition cars put on a pedestal (usually due to rave press reviews) and which command huge premiums but which are closely based on cooking models which almost every bit as good.
In other words, buy the base model for literally a small fraction of the price and get 90-95% of the experience, or sometimes more than 100% if you modify well. What you don't get are the credibility or collectability.
Megane R26.R - a legendary skunkworks Renaultsport creation, but R26s barely warrant a mention these days despite being the same car with soundproofing and without the cage and buckets (and a better experience than an R26.R if you put on decent coilovers and a ZPO shifter).
Porsche 968 Club Sport - the words "Club Sport" seem to cast a spell over Porschephiles despite minimal differences versus the base 968. And the price difference versus the UK market Sport is questionable when you consider Sports were CSes specced by Porsche UK with comfort seats and electrics (they all have the same VIN numbers), not to mention most CSes also have comfort seats and the electrics optioned.
Clio Trophy: ok I've not actually driven a Trophy, but I can't see how a great set of dampers is going to make such a transformational difference over a regular 182 (which is vastly improved by lowering the seating position, fitting a smaller steering wheel and adding caster/camber, none of which the standard Trophy has).
Impreza P1/RB5 - anyone who read Evo in the 2000s will remember how venerated these editions were, but a standard UK Turbo / JDM WRX could be made as good/ better with a few mods.
I'm sure there are more, but the above are the cars I've actually owned and can speak to based on personal experience. Often it's more about the narrative/legend surrounding the car and the kudos of it having been recognised by journalists, rather than tangible qualitative differences.
In other words, buy the base model for literally a small fraction of the price and get 90-95% of the experience, or sometimes more than 100% if you modify well. What you don't get are the credibility or collectability.
Megane R26.R - a legendary skunkworks Renaultsport creation, but R26s barely warrant a mention these days despite being the same car with soundproofing and without the cage and buckets (and a better experience than an R26.R if you put on decent coilovers and a ZPO shifter).
Porsche 968 Club Sport - the words "Club Sport" seem to cast a spell over Porschephiles despite minimal differences versus the base 968. And the price difference versus the UK market Sport is questionable when you consider Sports were CSes specced by Porsche UK with comfort seats and electrics (they all have the same VIN numbers), not to mention most CSes also have comfort seats and the electrics optioned.
Clio Trophy: ok I've not actually driven a Trophy, but I can't see how a great set of dampers is going to make such a transformational difference over a regular 182 (which is vastly improved by lowering the seating position, fitting a smaller steering wheel and adding caster/camber, none of which the standard Trophy has).
Impreza P1/RB5 - anyone who read Evo in the 2000s will remember how venerated these editions were, but a standard UK Turbo / JDM WRX could be made as good/ better with a few mods.
I'm sure there are more, but the above are the cars I've actually owned and can speak to based on personal experience. Often it's more about the narrative/legend surrounding the car and the kudos of it having been recognised by journalists, rather than tangible qualitative differences.
Edited by plenty on Tuesday 29th November 14:02
plenty said:
The Megane R26.R thread reminded me of a recurring theme in my motoring experience: limited-edition cars put on a pedestal (usually due to rave press reviews) and which command huge premiums but which are closely based on cooking models which almost every bit as good.
In other words, buy the base model for literally a small fraction of the price and get 90-95% of the experience, or sometimes more than 100% if you modify well. What you don't get are the credibility or collectability.
Megane R26.R - a legendary skunkworks Renaultsport creation, but R26s barely warrant a mention these days despite being the same car with soundproofing and without the cage and buckets (and a better experience than an R26.R if you put on decent coilovers and a ZPO shifter).
Porsche 968 Club Sport - the words "Club Sport" seem to cast a spell over Porschephiles despite minimal differences versus the base 968. And the price difference versus the UK market Sport is questionable when you consider Sports were CSes specced by Porsche UK with comfort seats and electrics (they all have the same VIN numbers), not to mention most CSes also have comfort seats and the electrics optioned.
Clio Trophy: ok I've not actually driven a Trophy, but I can't see how a great set of dampers is going to be make such a transformational difference over a regular 182 (which is vastly improved by lowering the seating position, fitting a smaller steering wheel and adding caster/camber, none of which the standard Trophy has).
Impreza P1/RB5 - anyone who read Evo in the 2000s will remember how venerated these editions were, but a standard UK Turbo / JDM WRX could be made as good/ better with a few mods.
I'm sure there are more, but the above are the cars I've actually owned and can speak to based on personal experience.
I can only compare the 182 Trophy to the 182 FF (With cup suspension) as I've owned both, well two Trophies over a period of many years. The Trophy really was a better car, I'm not eloquent enough or experienced enough to put into words why it was, but it was. Perhaps there was that halo effect of it being a ltd edition and much praised car... I can admit that sort of thing would probably have an impact on me. In other words, buy the base model for literally a small fraction of the price and get 90-95% of the experience, or sometimes more than 100% if you modify well. What you don't get are the credibility or collectability.
Megane R26.R - a legendary skunkworks Renaultsport creation, but R26s barely warrant a mention these days despite being the same car with soundproofing and without the cage and buckets (and a better experience than an R26.R if you put on decent coilovers and a ZPO shifter).
Porsche 968 Club Sport - the words "Club Sport" seem to cast a spell over Porschephiles despite minimal differences versus the base 968. And the price difference versus the UK market Sport is questionable when you consider Sports were CSes specced by Porsche UK with comfort seats and electrics (they all have the same VIN numbers), not to mention most CSes also have comfort seats and the electrics optioned.
Clio Trophy: ok I've not actually driven a Trophy, but I can't see how a great set of dampers is going to be make such a transformational difference over a regular 182 (which is vastly improved by lowering the seating position, fitting a smaller steering wheel and adding caster/camber, none of which the standard Trophy has).
Impreza P1/RB5 - anyone who read Evo in the 2000s will remember how venerated these editions were, but a standard UK Turbo / JDM WRX could be made as good/ better with a few mods.
I'm sure there are more, but the above are the cars I've actually owned and can speak to based on personal experience.
There was just something about the Trophy though and i'd much rather have one than any other variant, including a well modded and honed non Trophy 182. I am a little bit of a purist though and I think that's probably where most of these inflated values come from, people like things as intended by the manufacturer, as they left the factory, whether they're objectively better or not.
Maybe a controversial one, and I say this a genuine fan of the cars themselves..
But the 911 (997.2) GT3 RS and RS 4.0.
The latter is typically twice the price of the former nowadays (~£350k vs ~£175k). The 4.0 is rarer, so from a collector's view that makes sense, and that extra 200cc accounts for about 50bhp. I do think they're fantastic, but are they worth double a 3.8 RS?
If you're desperate for more power, a Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion is around £50k and provides ~540bhp
But the 911 (997.2) GT3 RS and RS 4.0.
The latter is typically twice the price of the former nowadays (~£350k vs ~£175k). The 4.0 is rarer, so from a collector's view that makes sense, and that extra 200cc accounts for about 50bhp. I do think they're fantastic, but are they worth double a 3.8 RS?
If you're desperate for more power, a Sharkwerks 4.1 conversion is around £50k and provides ~540bhp
smithyithy said:
But the 911 (997.2) GT3 RS and RS 4.0.
I guess the difference for me is the 3.8 is by anyone’s standards a highly desirable and aspirational car. Whereas for the more prosaic examples given above, there is a massive gulf in perceived desirability that greatly outweighs any tangible differences.When I owned my R26.R I used to get attention from people who wouldn’t give an R26 a second glance. Harry Metcalfe is famously enthusiastic about his Trophy, but it’s hard to imagine him waxing lyrical about a cooking 182.
Observe closely how 968CS owners take special care to mention those two initials. It’s never a 968, it’s always a 968CS.
I’m not knocking it. Value can be created in different ways. It’s just interesting to see how much a car’s reputation can rest on its story rather than its objective qualities.
plenty said:
I guess the difference for me is the 3.8 is by anyone’s standards a highly desirable and aspirational car. Whereas for the more prosaic examples given above, there is a massive gulf in perceived desirability that greatly outweighs any tangible differences.
When I owned my R26.R I used to get attention from people who wouldn’t give an R26 a second glance. Harry Metcalfe is famously enthusiastic about his Trophy, but it’s hard to imagine him waxing lyrical about a cooking 182.
Observe closely how 968CS owners take special care to mention those two initials. It’s never a 968, it’s always a 968CS.
I’m not knocking it. Value can be created in different ways. It’s just interesting to see how much a car’s reputation can rest on its story rather than its objective qualities.
That is very true, the 'regular' 3.8 is still regarded very highly by most people.When I owned my R26.R I used to get attention from people who wouldn’t give an R26 a second glance. Harry Metcalfe is famously enthusiastic about his Trophy, but it’s hard to imagine him waxing lyrical about a cooking 182.
Observe closely how 968CS owners take special care to mention those two initials. It’s never a 968, it’s always a 968CS.
I’m not knocking it. Value can be created in different ways. It’s just interesting to see how much a car’s reputation can rest on its story rather than its objective qualities.
It's interesting referencing the R26.R as that is lauded as an amazing hot hatch and rightly so. But the R26.R is 90% the same car but has seats, glass windows and no carbon bonnet in the main and on the road probably offers a better all round prospect.
That was based on the Megane 225 (of which I have one) and that was always fairly under appreciated. It was sharper to drive than the closest rival the Focus ST and didn't understeer like the Astra VXR but was very much over shadowed. Wasn't until the R26 that the RS Megane really hit the radar and to be fair the tweaks did make a big difference. More so than the difference from a 182 to a 182 Trophy although again both awesome cars.
That was based on the Megane 225 (of which I have one) and that was always fairly under appreciated. It was sharper to drive than the closest rival the Focus ST and didn't understeer like the Astra VXR but was very much over shadowed. Wasn't until the R26 that the RS Megane really hit the radar and to be fair the tweaks did make a big difference. More so than the difference from a 182 to a 182 Trophy although again both awesome cars.
plenty said:
The Megane R26.R thread reminded me of a recurring theme in my motoring experience: limited-edition cars put on a pedestal (usually due to rave press reviews) and which command huge premiums but which are closely based on cooking models which almost every bit as good.
.
Porsche
Imo a lot of them!.
Porsche
Edited by plenty on Tuesday 29th November 14:02
Take the "legendary" 964 RS lightweight.
It's basically good at nothing.
Too stiff and underdamped for roads, too soft for the track. Completely transformed with some Proflex suspension, when we raced it we ended up taking off 1/2 the "trick" parts and using composites anyway. Always hampered by the not stiff enough factory cage, which eventually came out and was replaced by something better. Oil cooler was needed as standard Rs cooling wasn't enough.
Imo, a good Carrera, with some decent engine work (there was a lot of steel in the rs engine), a bit if DIy weight loss, proflex, and if you wish a supercharger would be measurably better than a factory RS in every single measurable metric, other than likes in the porsche sub forum, and be 100k cheaper.
I think you can rinse and repeat with a lot of the limited specials, because they're still compromising, where as anything you make for yourself by nature is more in tune with what you want. Ertainly, if you choose to modify, you often get more by putting it back nearer standard and selling the bolt on bits seperstely!
RX-7 Spirit R is basically a classic 'run out special' - load it up with 'the good bits' from the optional equipment list, apply some stickers and hope the punters will take your last batch of cars off your hands.
The premium they fetch is basically about them being the ultimate version of the car, and thus sought-after by rotary aficionados, rather than reflecting any particular mechanical improvements over any other 1999-on RX-7. It's the cherry on top, not a fundamentally altered recipe. (Compared to say an NSX-R, which is quite a chunk lighter than any other NSX for starters).
Sticking with the JDM, I have the impression there are a lot of very, very pricey R35 special editions which are only very marginally different from the much more affordable regular GTRs. The phrase 'the narcissism of small differences' comes to mind.
Certainly Sierra RS500 vs regular Sierra RS Cosworth and the Delta Integrale Evos vs the regular Integrales (Harris owns an 8v Integrale and is happy that way).
Also Focus RS vs Focus ST (mk2). The ST can be as quick as the RS with a remap.
E46 M3 CSL vs E46 M3
M5 CS vs M5 Competition
M2 CS/Competition vs original M2
V12 Vantage vs. V8V
V10 R8 vs V8 R8
Even 911 GT3 RS vs GT3 I reckon
I get the specialness of the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 but if we're talking 991/992, a manual.GT3 Touring is all the 911 that I would ever need or want.
Also Focus RS vs Focus ST (mk2). The ST can be as quick as the RS with a remap.
E46 M3 CSL vs E46 M3
M5 CS vs M5 Competition
M2 CS/Competition vs original M2
V12 Vantage vs. V8V
V10 R8 vs V8 R8
Even 911 GT3 RS vs GT3 I reckon
I get the specialness of the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 but if we're talking 991/992, a manual.GT3 Touring is all the 911 that I would ever need or want.
A limited/special factory product will always command a higher price than anything modified, even if the modified one is better, its a thing, a known quantity and that for some is key.
I am not fussed, but might be if I had more money to lavish on stuff, I would love a 3 door Sierra Cosworth, but wouldn't be fussed over if it was a 500, as would want something modified anyway, but keep the original looks as far as possible.
Guess it depends how different the special is from the base vehicle, some are just pretty superficial, some have the engine in a completely different place.
I am not fussed, but might be if I had more money to lavish on stuff, I would love a 3 door Sierra Cosworth, but wouldn't be fussed over if it was a 500, as would want something modified anyway, but keep the original looks as far as possible.
Guess it depends how different the special is from the base vehicle, some are just pretty superficial, some have the engine in a completely different place.
The MG metro turbo was a massive leap forward in performance compared to the basic spec metro. If the gearboxes were not made of cheese and the driveshafts of chocolate then the lotus developed turbo would have been over 120-150hp (they made 200 in testing iirc) then it could have been a giant slayer. That 4 speed box really held them back.
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