19% Pay Rise

[Tom8]

Listening to news earlier and reporting that nurses are striking because they are demanding a 19% payrise. In any business, could anyone afford a 19% pay rise? I get why people withdraw their labour but at least be realistic with your demands. Is this just pointless or aiming extremely high in the hope you can negotiate to say 10%?

[bigandclever]

No point demanding what you actually want, or what you will actually accept.

[simon_harris]

Straight from Trumps "art of the deal" you start with your position at a ridiculous extreme and work back from there until you get to a position that you are happy to accept, usually above where you might have expected to finish under normal circumstances.

[robemcdonald]

I think the nurses in Scotland also started by asking for 19%, but settled on 7%.

[pete_esp]

robemcdonald said:

I think the nurses in Scotland also started by asking for 19%, but settled on 7%.

Which I think is outrageous unless it's 7% y.o.y for at least 3 years and assuming inflation falls back to 0% next year

[Vipers]

They could help nursing staff a bit, free parking for starters, my friends wife is a nurse up in Aberdeen, and she cant get a bus to work, its too early, she has to drive, and pays the car park fee for the priviledge.

They pay abut £100 a year to register, believe doctors do it as well, and most take out insurance against malpractice, and some egit sues you.

Good luck to them.

[VeeReihenmotor6]

I thought the scottish nurses had rejected the 7% today?

They are asking for 19% to catch up on years of below inflation rises. The NHS has haemorrhaged staff who have had enough leaving the ones left overworked, at risk of error and that matched with their pay being erroded for a decade or more has pushed them to action.

Fixing the pay might start to solve the retention of staff but the NHS has a lot more work to do to make it efficient.

And no, i don't think any business could afford to pay out 19% but if pay had been managed properly over the last decade we would not be in this position. Also I don't think they'll get 19% - I think they will settle on 10 to 14%

edit to add - they could offer other things such as paying for their annual professional registration and indeminity insureance at c£200 per annum, free parking, travel concession. Lots of options to get that % down if the government negotiators simply sat down and started talking.

[Caddyshack]

The problem is that once the pay rise is added it is never taken away so the cost is very ongoing.

There was a great bit on BBC this morning where the Nurse was saying that she had only worked as a Nurse 4 years and was experiencing burn out, she said she struggled and it was not safe for them or the patient - the news guy asked "and do you think a pay rise would make that any better?"

I get that they could recruit more if the pay was more - in theory.

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

[boyse7en]

Caddyshack said:

The problem is that once the pay rise is added it is never taken away so the cost is very ongoing.

There was a great bit on BBC this morning where the Nurse was saying that she had only worked as a Nurse 4 years and was experiencing burn out, she said she struggled and it was not safe for them or the patient - the news guy asked "and do you think a pay rise would make that any better?"

I get that they could recruit more if the pay was more - in theory.

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

Do many professions/jobs ever get an actual pay cut, rather than below-inflation rises that erode real terms pay over time?
Pay and recruitment are inextricably linked - pay more in salary and fewer nurses would leave and more people would train up.

[ChocolateFrog]

Tom8 said:

Listening to news earlier and reporting that nurses are striking because they are demanding a 19% payrise. In any business, could anyone afford a 19% pay rise? I get why people withdraw their labour but at least be realistic with your demands. Is this just pointless or aiming extremely high in the hope you can negotiate to say 10%?

Lots of people have been given that and more. Lawyers got it a couple of months ago.

[VeeReihenmotor6]

Caddyshack said:

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

Interesting view point - my wife has a diploma, bsc in nursing, bsc in intensive care, msc in respiratory nursing and a msc nurse prescriber (taking some of the strain away from doctors).

I think my highest qualification is NVQ Level 4 yet I earn about £30k a year more than my wife....

[Caddyshack]

VeeReihenmotor6 said:

Caddyshack said:

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

Interesting view point - my wife has a diploma, bsc in nursing, bsc in intensive care, msc in respiratory nursing and a msc nurse prescriber (taking some of the strain away from doctors).

I think my highest qualification is NVQ Level 4 yet I earn about £30k a year more than my wife....

Your pay just goes to show that the skill set / type of quals that nurses have do not generate the same income elsewhere though - your wife is very well qualified for an industry that does not pay and it is not very transferable unless you go private and do the same job. Those quals would probably not earn more money elsewhere in other industries....this is the point I am trying to make. I think nurses are quite well paid compared to whatever else that person is qualified to do.

You can be totally unqualified and earn massive figures in other industries and working much less hours.

[MesoForm]

VeeReihenmotor6 said:

Caddyshack said:

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

Interesting view point - my wife has a diploma, bsc in nursing, bsc in intensive care, msc in respiratory nursing and a msc nurse prescriber (taking some of the strain away from doctors).

I think my highest qualification is NVQ Level 4 yet I earn about £30k a year more than my wife....

Isn't that 10 years of full time study?
Anyway, with nurses needing a degree these days a simple thing the government could do to help is to pay off the student loans of nurses for 10 years while they're working for NHS. If they leave then the government stops paying. Can't be that hard to administer and might attract more people into the profession and keep them in the NHS.

[ChocolateFrog]

Bursaries need to come back and the requirement for a degree is as ridiculous in nursing as it is in policing.

[VeeReihenmotor6]

Yes 10 years but it took her 15 as she did it around her job. Personally I would not have bothered as there is no financial reward and I told her the same, but she does it becuase it is expected and offers job security / ability to move role to another hospital as it's on the criteria list.

I think it is utter madness to expect that level of qualifcation for the wage on offer.

[Caddyshack]

boyse7en said:

Caddyshack said:

The problem is that once the pay rise is added it is never taken away so the cost is very ongoing.

There was a great bit on BBC this morning where the Nurse was saying that she had only worked as a Nurse 4 years and was experiencing burn out, she said she struggled and it was not safe for them or the patient - the news guy asked "and do you think a pay rise would make that any better?"

I get that they could recruit more if the pay was more - in theory.

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

Do many professions/jobs ever get an actual pay cut, rather than below-inflation rises that erode real terms pay over time?
Pay and recruitment are inextricably linked - pay more in salary and fewer nurses would leave and more people would train up.

No, you are right which is why you cannot give a 19% payrise as people do not take a cut when inflation drops to 2% again and then they still want a 2% payrise.

I think there are 321,000 nurses employed in the NHS. If the average income is £30k then we are talking £475 pm per person per month - that is £152,475,000 pounds per month extra, forever, (1.8 billion pa) that the NHS have to pay out...it would be more as some nurses earn up to £90k.

Inflation is probably peaking now and this is an unheard of figure for a very long time plus outside factors of Ukraine so when prices do drop the NHS would still be paying out that £152m extra per month (they are cash strapped remember)

There are other costs on top -pensions linked to salary, employer NI, death in service etc...


Perhaps we could give them an inlfation based rider to help with the cost of living, do not link it to pensions and benefits and it follows inflation so when costs drop their pay can adjust - that may at least be more affordable?

The other thing people miss is that if everyone gets a payrise that massively adds to the inflation pressure as prices have to go up to pay more wages.

[VeeReihenmotor6]

Isn't inflation cumulative though, so if it's 10% today and 2% next year then that packet of crisps is 2% higher next year on top of whatever the price was last year i.e. including the 10% to date.

[Tom8]

Caddyshack said:

boyse7en said:

Caddyshack said:

The problem is that once the pay rise is added it is never taken away so the cost is very ongoing.

There was a great bit on BBC this morning where the Nurse was saying that she had only worked as a Nurse 4 years and was experiencing burn out, she said she struggled and it was not safe for them or the patient - the news guy asked "and do you think a pay rise would make that any better?"

I get that they could recruit more if the pay was more - in theory.

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

Do many professions/jobs ever get an actual pay cut, rather than below-inflation rises that erode real terms pay over time?
Pay and recruitment are inextricably linked - pay more in salary and fewer nurses would leave and more people would train up.

No, you are right which is why you cannot give a 19% payrise as people do not take a cut when inflation drops to 2% again and then they still want a 2% payrise.

I think there are 321,000 nurses employed in the NHS. If the average income is £30k then we are talking £475 pm per person per month - that is £152,475,000 pounds per month extra, forever, (1.8 billion pa) that the NHS have to pay out...it would be more as some nurses earn up to £90k.

Inflation is probably peaking now and this is an unheard of figure for a very long time plus outside factors of Ukraine so when prices do drop the NHS would still be paying out that £152m extra per month (they are cash strapped remember)

There are other costs on top -pensions linked to salary, employer NI, death in service etc...


Perhaps we could give them an inlfation based rider to help with the cost of living, do not link it to pensions and benefits and it follows inflation so when costs drop their pay can adjust - that may at least be more affordable?

The other thing people miss is that if everyone gets a payrise that massively adds to the inflation pressure as prices have to go up to pay more wages.

My employer has done one off payments this year, one for a cost of living allowance and another for people too high in pay bands for a rise. They are flat payments subject to tax and NI but are not a salary increase, their base will be the same next year.

[Caddyshack]

VeeReihenmotor6 said:

Isn't inflation cumulative though, so if it's 10% today and 2% next year then that packet of crisps is 2% higher next year on top of whatever the price was last year i.e. including the 10% to date.

We see deflation too though so the packet of crisps can become cheaper. Prices of goods may fall quite dramatically if and when we resolve the Ukraine supply chain issues, cost of energy and if house prices fall, retail stalls and cars stop selling we could see a rapid deflation or crash.

Dis-inflation is inflation but less than before, deflation is the decrease in cost.

[Caddyshack]

Tom8 said:

Caddyshack said:

boyse7en said:

Caddyshack said:

The problem is that once the pay rise is added it is never taken away so the cost is very ongoing.

There was a great bit on BBC this morning where the Nurse was saying that she had only worked as a Nurse 4 years and was experiencing burn out, she said she struggled and it was not safe for them or the patient - the news guy asked "and do you think a pay rise would make that any better?"

I get that they could recruit more if the pay was more - in theory.

I always thought nursing was quite well paid for the skill set needed compared to other jobs that those people were capable of...I am sure it is a tough job but what else can they do to earn that money?

Do many professions/jobs ever get an actual pay cut, rather than below-inflation rises that erode real terms pay over time?
Pay and recruitment are inextricably linked - pay more in salary and fewer nurses would leave and more people would train up.

No, you are right which is why you cannot give a 19% payrise as people do not take a cut when inflation drops to 2% again and then they still want a 2% payrise.

I think there are 321,000 nurses employed in the NHS. If the average income is £30k then we are talking £475 pm per person per month - that is £152,475,000 pounds per month extra, forever, (1.8 billion pa) that the NHS have to pay out...it would be more as some nurses earn up to £90k.

Inflation is probably peaking now and this is an unheard of figure for a very long time plus outside factors of Ukraine so when prices do drop the NHS would still be paying out that £152m extra per month (they are cash strapped remember)

There are other costs on top -pensions linked to salary, employer NI, death in service etc...


Perhaps we could give them an inlfation based rider to help with the cost of living, do not link it to pensions and benefits and it follows inflation so when costs drop their pay can adjust - that may at least be more affordable?

The other thing people miss is that if everyone gets a payrise that massively adds to the inflation pressure as prices have to go up to pay more wages.

My employer has done one off payments this year, one for a cost of living allowance and another for people too high in pay bands for a rise. They are flat payments subject to tax and NI but are not a salary increase, their base will be the same next year.

Yes, I have given ad-hoc bonuses to try and help.