Licence Renewal at 75
Discussion
My F-I-L is being a bit of a PITA with regard to his worsening health and reporting suck to DVLA.
In the last five years, he has suffered a number (at least one) TIA, been diagnosed with T2 diabetes and most recently Vascular Dementia, all of which I understand need reporting to DVLA and insurance company.
Over Xmas, we learned he was unaware of this requirement and we badgered him to do so. His current stance is he has been sent a licence renewal (I assume this is a D46B) and completion of this will suffice. I know it does not get to insurance companies but we are at one stage at a time. I have informed him his insurance is likely to be invalid until he does inform! No idea if he mentioned these at insurance renewal. He is 76 in March.
Cannot really find out online if this is enough (regardless of whether he will answer accurately and honestly) and the Mrs was on the phone today to DVLA but the queue was too long and she had to go out to work.
The Mrs is T1 diabetic and has to renew every three years, quite a lengthy questionnaire and eye test to renew!
Anyone know if his chosen method is actually good enough? D46B seems to be not downloadable ……. So wondering what the collective opinion is regarding these three ailments.
In the last five years, he has suffered a number (at least one) TIA, been diagnosed with T2 diabetes and most recently Vascular Dementia, all of which I understand need reporting to DVLA and insurance company.
Over Xmas, we learned he was unaware of this requirement and we badgered him to do so. His current stance is he has been sent a licence renewal (I assume this is a D46B) and completion of this will suffice. I know it does not get to insurance companies but we are at one stage at a time. I have informed him his insurance is likely to be invalid until he does inform! No idea if he mentioned these at insurance renewal. He is 76 in March.
Cannot really find out online if this is enough (regardless of whether he will answer accurately and honestly) and the Mrs was on the phone today to DVLA but the queue was too long and she had to go out to work.
The Mrs is T1 diabetic and has to renew every three years, quite a lengthy questionnaire and eye test to renew!
Anyone know if his chosen method is actually good enough? D46B seems to be not downloadable ……. So wondering what the collective opinion is regarding these three ailments.
Similar conditions and age to my dad at the time. I think we only managed to get him to divulge his health conditions on the 2nd renewal though. By that time he was multiple accidents waiting to happen.
DVLA asked for a GP report and they (unbelievably) said he was ok to drive which he clearly wasn't. About 9 months later he got his licence back but we never told him and said that he didn't actually get it back. He didn't challenge that. However, it didn't stop him thinking he could just jump in and drive off whenever he wanted to.
Unfortunately I think you're going to have to apply some peer pressure to convince him to stop driving (if you think he's not fit to drive) as GP and DVLA are pretty slack.
DVLA asked for a GP report and they (unbelievably) said he was ok to drive which he clearly wasn't. About 9 months later he got his licence back but we never told him and said that he didn't actually get it back. He didn't challenge that. However, it didn't stop him thinking he could just jump in and drive off whenever he wanted to.
Unfortunately I think you're going to have to apply some peer pressure to convince him to stop driving (if you think he's not fit to drive) as GP and DVLA are pretty slack.
Thanks.
I do think he is an accident waiting to happen but like yours, he will drive anyway. If he ends up in front of a coroner I would like him to be at least legal where the authorities have been duly informed.
Stubborn is an understatement.
Mrs is going to get on to DVLA tomorrow again to see what’s what.
Interestingly, he has just had his gun licence renewed (which surprised me), even the M-I-L expressed surprise to the “inspector” on the home visit. He did at least give her his number and said if you feel things are getting bad, to let him know and he will consider revoking.
I do think he is an accident waiting to happen but like yours, he will drive anyway. If he ends up in front of a coroner I would like him to be at least legal where the authorities have been duly informed.
Stubborn is an understatement.
Mrs is going to get on to DVLA tomorrow again to see what’s what.
Interestingly, he has just had his gun licence renewed (which surprised me), even the M-I-L expressed surprise to the “inspector” on the home visit. He did at least give her his number and said if you feel things are getting bad, to let him know and he will consider revoking.
Edited by mattyn1 on Thursday 5th January 23:38
List of notifiable medical conditions is here :
https://www.gov.uk/health-conditions-and-driving/f...
Both Dementia and TIAs are included in the list of notifiable conditions.
Also, point out to him that (Taken from the DVLA web site: "You can be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t tell DVLA about a medical condition that affects your driving. You may be prosecuted if you’re involved in an accident as a result".
https://www.gov.uk/driving-medical-conditions
HTH
https://www.gov.uk/health-conditions-and-driving/f...
Both Dementia and TIAs are included in the list of notifiable conditions.
Also, point out to him that (Taken from the DVLA web site: "You can be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t tell DVLA about a medical condition that affects your driving. You may be prosecuted if you’re involved in an accident as a result".
https://www.gov.uk/driving-medical-conditions
HTH
rayny said:
List of notifiable medical conditions is here :
https://www.gov.uk/health-conditions-and-driving/f...
Both Dementia and TIAs are included in the list of notifiable conditions.
Also, point out to him that (Taken from the DVLA web site: "You can be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t tell DVLA about a medical condition that affects your driving. You may be prosecuted if you’re involved in an accident as a result".
https://www.gov.uk/driving-medical-conditions
HTH
Thanks. Have seen this but good to get confirmation someone reads it as I do! https://www.gov.uk/health-conditions-and-driving/f...
Both Dementia and TIAs are included in the list of notifiable conditions.
Also, point out to him that (Taken from the DVLA web site: "You can be fined up to £1,000 if you don’t tell DVLA about a medical condition that affects your driving. You may be prosecuted if you’re involved in an accident as a result".
https://www.gov.uk/driving-medical-conditions
HTH
It’s easy to tell him, and remind him again and again, a different problem altogether getting him to act.
The concern I have is he seems to think filling out the renewal will suffice. As I read the .gov pages, one needs to inform specifically regarding these conditions. Popping to a post office in a moment…….. will get the form to check the level of questioning.
If I could characterise him further, he has lived in Cornwall all his life and as such, one of those who feels certain rules don’t apply to him! Add his stubbornness and his conditions, you can sense how difficult this is!
I presume you don't have the health power of attorney for him in the family? I would be tempted to post his letter to DVLA for him, open it up and add a covering letter from your wife with the conditions specifically listed. If you have the LPoA that makes it a bit more "honourable" IYSWIM?
BertBert said:
I presume you don't have the health power of attorney for him in the family? I would be tempted to post his letter to DVLA for him, open it up and add a covering letter from your wife with the conditions specifically listed. If you have the LPoA that makes it a bit more "honourable" IYSWIM?
LPoA is another angle we have started, but is not gaining traction with him. We emphasised it was for later if he deteriorated badly, better it in place than not. The issue is we are 250 miles away, so while face to face he says all the right positive things, when we chase him he will kick the can down the road over the phone…… so easy for him to do.
Mrs is furious. She being a senior staff nurse you would think would have some gravitas but alas no…… he won’t listen to her. He also has another medical issue with fluid on the brain that is clouding the overall medical issues, (has a name that I can’t recall right now) but is something a serious (but relatively routine) op would probably fix, allowing the extent of the dementia problem to be then properly assessed. Will he chase down that? No.
My view is he needs to do some sort of grieving to come to terms with his old age and the problems he has. Possibly therapy but as a working man since he was knee high, it’s all a foreign language (when I mentioned grieving of sorts, his words were he does not need that modern fluffy s
te). If we can get him to accept his conditions, we will all be happier, most importantly, him.I really feel for the guy……. He feels everyone is on his case and feels he needs to fight back! It is really quite difficult.
His wife (my Mrs mum) died when the Mrs was 12, and he then brought up her and her brother single handedly though the 80s and 90s, so another angle is he has always been the one to solve the issues. My own mum was in the same boat so really understand this side of the problem!
He is out this morning allegedly fixing someone’s washing machine rather than deal with the issues.
Bit more long winded than intended. Cheers for reading. It’s quite therapeutic to get this down
You always should consider the non-interventionist angle as well in these kinds of situations.
I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
ingenieur said:
You always should consider the non-interventionist angle as well in these kinds of situations.
I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
Just because things haven't happened in the past, doesn't mean they won't happen in the future. They are notifiable conditions for a reason, mainly because it may put them at higher risk.I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
And usually, you only need to see how a person drives to know that they are a risk, health condition or not!
Stubbornness plus dementia means you do really have to tell them what to do because they cannot make that judgement themselves. However, stubbornness often means the more you tell someone to do something the more they will resist and do the opposite. They know best etc so it is a fine line between convincing them to make the right decision themselves and making it for them.
ingenieur said:
You always should consider the non-interventionist angle as well in these kinds of situations.
I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
Great question, and one I have pondered and still ponder. The answer - yes - as he will not do it without our intervention. Outside of the conditions he has, he has an attitude of "I have always done this so I will continue to be fine".I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
He may well carry on driving, and be accident free. But what if he is not accident free and he has not done the right thing and inform.......
My view is really simplistic, and I do welcome that to be challenged so thanks for replying and commenting. He has conditions/illnesses/ailments that DVLA and the insurance have stated they need to know about. He tells them, conflab between them and the GP/Consultants, and decisions will be made. I am really content with that, but getting that first stage is proving tricky!
All older drivers become risker as they get older.
My granddad was suffering from occasional strokes before he decided to give up driving. He did so voluntarily when he felt it was the right time. He didn't have any major accidents and was about 90 when he decided to quit.
Now whether it's a coincidence or not we will never know... but he died at 92 so deciding not to be mobile and giving up living all together happened within a relatively short period.
My granddad was suffering from occasional strokes before he decided to give up driving. He did so voluntarily when he felt it was the right time. He didn't have any major accidents and was about 90 when he decided to quit.
Now whether it's a coincidence or not we will never know... but he died at 92 so deciding not to be mobile and giving up living all together happened within a relatively short period.
xx99xx said:
ingenieur said:
You always should consider the non-interventionist angle as well in these kinds of situations.
I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
Just because things haven't happened in the past, doesn't mean they won't happen in the future. They are notifiable conditions for a reason, mainly because it may put them at higher risk.I don't know enough about this particular situation to say anything relating to it but something we all know about is how hysterical some people got at the height of the covid crisis. There were people marching around the place like mini hitlers telling people to put on masks and get jabbed up like the world was going to end without 100% compliance. The world didn't end despite compliance being on the whole either weak or ineffective.
The point being... are you really sure you have to be telling him what to do?
A friend of my mums has been warned for more than 10 years by her daughter not to drive but has kept driving and nothing especially serious has happened.
And usually, you only need to see how a person drives to know that they are a risk, health condition or not!
Stubbornness plus dementia means you do really have to tell them what to do because they cannot make that judgement themselves. However, stubbornness often means the more you tell someone to do something the more they will resist and do the opposite. They know best etc so it is a fine line between convincing them to make the right decision themselves and making it for them.
His personality means he won't accept being as ill as he is, and his illness means he won't accept the condition he is in.
She is heading down in a couple of weeks to have these conversations face to face - its not as easy to kick the can down the road when face to face, as it is on the phone. Her brother is going too.
mattyn1 - Thank you for at least trying to get him to do the right thing.
If he has any notifiable condition[s], then he needs to inform the DVLA, and they will decide if he should continue to drive - It is all part of ones responsibilities when living and driving in this country.
Those of us who have notifiable medical conditions all have to abide by the same rules.
.
If he has any notifiable condition[s], then he needs to inform the DVLA, and they will decide if he should continue to drive - It is all part of ones responsibilities when living and driving in this country.
Those of us who have notifiable medical conditions all have to abide by the same rules.
.
Bit of an update.
F-i-L has a appointment with the GP on 26 Jan 23 to hopefully accelerate referrals for his Consultant appointment(s). He has not told us that yet though, we have heard it through other means!
Mrs and her brother going down to see him that weekend too - to start dealing with it face to face.
Fingers crossed he says the right things to his GP - and I mean the truth, not what we know he has said before - "I am fine, nothing wrong with me". M-i-L will hopefully go into the appointment to take notes and offer any corrections to his account.
F-i-L has a appointment with the GP on 26 Jan 23 to hopefully accelerate referrals for his Consultant appointment(s). He has not told us that yet though, we have heard it through other means!
Mrs and her brother going down to see him that weekend too - to start dealing with it face to face.
Fingers crossed he says the right things to his GP - and I mean the truth, not what we know he has said before - "I am fine, nothing wrong with me". M-i-L will hopefully go into the appointment to take notes and offer any corrections to his account.
Good luck with this. But you are doing the right thing.
My father in law lost his wife about 15 years ago, and was never the same after that.
He developed mild dementia about 7 years ago, but was still driving.
He used to go for a drive, but frequently got lost, not returning for hours.
His car collected more and more scrapes on the sides, and so in the end one of my sisters in law took his car off him.
She lived close, so used to go see him 3-4 times a week and take him out whenever she wasn't working.
All fine, but then one night he was recovered by the Gwent Police, walking down the M4 at 2am. It was about 2 miles from his flat.
After that he went into a care home, and only lasted another 2 years.
He was in the RAF for 27 years, ending up as WO1.
It's sad the way we end up, but we have to protect both the loved one and the public at large when these situations occur.
My own father was also on his own into his 80s, gradually started having falls and in the end was confined to his bed/chair/zimmer, with carers coming in 3 times a day. Before that he kept his Yaris in the garage, taxed, serviced, MOT'd and insured in case he wanted to go anywhere. The one time in an entire year that he went anywhere in it the went one mile, got out at the shops and promptly fell over, and had to be picked up off the floor by a good samaritan and taken home. I took his Yaris, which had a scape on all 4 corners by then, off him and sold it for him, for his and others' safety. He died about 2 years later, thankfully fully compos mentis to the end (he had a 1st class degree and PhD from Cambridge, and helped invent Ibuprofen during his career as a research scientist - it would have been heart breaking to have seen him lose his his faculties). I still don't know if I accelerated his demise by removing his car, I can only hope that it made no difference. My brother and I visited him three times a week right up to his death, and took him out regularly, so I hope not.
I did teach him how to play Sudoku, he taught me so much more.
PS as this is a car forum, I can confirm from my visits to my Dad that a 40 cm petrol lawn mower does fit in the boot of a TVR Chimaera
My father in law lost his wife about 15 years ago, and was never the same after that.
He developed mild dementia about 7 years ago, but was still driving.
He used to go for a drive, but frequently got lost, not returning for hours.
His car collected more and more scrapes on the sides, and so in the end one of my sisters in law took his car off him.
She lived close, so used to go see him 3-4 times a week and take him out whenever she wasn't working.
All fine, but then one night he was recovered by the Gwent Police, walking down the M4 at 2am. It was about 2 miles from his flat.
After that he went into a care home, and only lasted another 2 years.
He was in the RAF for 27 years, ending up as WO1.
It's sad the way we end up, but we have to protect both the loved one and the public at large when these situations occur.
My own father was also on his own into his 80s, gradually started having falls and in the end was confined to his bed/chair/zimmer, with carers coming in 3 times a day. Before that he kept his Yaris in the garage, taxed, serviced, MOT'd and insured in case he wanted to go anywhere. The one time in an entire year that he went anywhere in it the went one mile, got out at the shops and promptly fell over, and had to be picked up off the floor by a good samaritan and taken home. I took his Yaris, which had a scape on all 4 corners by then, off him and sold it for him, for his and others' safety. He died about 2 years later, thankfully fully compos mentis to the end (he had a 1st class degree and PhD from Cambridge, and helped invent Ibuprofen during his career as a research scientist - it would have been heart breaking to have seen him lose his his faculties). I still don't know if I accelerated his demise by removing his car, I can only hope that it made no difference. My brother and I visited him three times a week right up to his death, and took him out regularly, so I hope not.
I did teach him how to play Sudoku, he taught me so much more.
PS as this is a car forum, I can confirm from my visits to my Dad that a 40 cm petrol lawn mower does fit in the boot of a TVR Chimaera
An example of what can happen when no one intervenes, that was in the news recently:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/baby...
Until testing is mandated for everyone over (whatever age), the only people who can prevent this happening are the friends and families.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/12/baby...
Until testing is mandated for everyone over (whatever age), the only people who can prevent this happening are the friends and families.
OP - your situation sounds very similar to ours. My partner is a health care professional and was at the end of her tether with her father who was in his mid-80s but refused to consider giving up his car - partly out of pride but mainly arrogance/shear bloody mindedness (he has always been like that).
If someone has a mind (even an addled one) to drive it is very difficult to stop them - they can buy a car without a licence, drive it, even insure it so it doesn't get flagged on ANPR. Reporting it to the authorities may not even stop them!
FIL was diagnosed with dementia (plus a couple of other things) and refused to stop driving even when DVLA revoked his license after a hospital episode. He wouldn't consider LPOA so after hearing about a police visit following an ill advised trip out on flat tyres(!) we traveled to see him and whilst there we disconnected the car battery and took both sets of car keys away with us. He was apoplectic when he found out and it soured relations for a good few years but over time he has generally accepted the inevitable but still occassionally suggests he will go out and buy a new car...
If someone has a mind (even an addled one) to drive it is very difficult to stop them - they can buy a car without a licence, drive it, even insure it so it doesn't get flagged on ANPR. Reporting it to the authorities may not even stop them!
FIL was diagnosed with dementia (plus a couple of other things) and refused to stop driving even when DVLA revoked his license after a hospital episode. He wouldn't consider LPOA so after hearing about a police visit following an ill advised trip out on flat tyres(!) we traveled to see him and whilst there we disconnected the car battery and took both sets of car keys away with us. He was apoplectic when he found out and it soured relations for a good few years but over time he has generally accepted the inevitable but still occassionally suggests he will go out and buy a new car...
Om said:
OP - your situation sounds very similar to ours. My partner is a health care professional and was at the end of her tether with her father who was in his mid-80s but refused to consider giving up his car - partly out of pride but mainly arrogance/shear bloody mindedness (he has always been like that).
If someone has a mind (even an addled one) to drive it is very difficult to stop them - they can buy a car without a licence, drive it, even insure it so it doesn't get flagged on ANPR. Reporting it to the authorities may not even stop them!
FIL was diagnosed with dementia (plus a couple of other things) and refused to stop driving even when DVLA revoked his license after a hospital episode. He wouldn't consider LPOA so after hearing about a police visit following an ill advised trip out on flat tyres(!) we traveled to see him and whilst there we disconnected the car battery and took both sets of car keys away with us. He was apoplectic when he found out and it soured relations for a good few years but over time he has generally accepted the inevitable but still occassionally suggests he will go out and buy a new car...
Can you define an ‘addled’ mind? Just curious.If someone has a mind (even an addled one) to drive it is very difficult to stop them - they can buy a car without a licence, drive it, even insure it so it doesn't get flagged on ANPR. Reporting it to the authorities may not even stop them!
FIL was diagnosed with dementia (plus a couple of other things) and refused to stop driving even when DVLA revoked his license after a hospital episode. He wouldn't consider LPOA so after hearing about a police visit following an ill advised trip out on flat tyres(!) we traveled to see him and whilst there we disconnected the car battery and took both sets of car keys away with us. He was apoplectic when he found out and it soured relations for a good few years but over time he has generally accepted the inevitable but still occassionally suggests he will go out and buy a new car...
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