EVs and brakedowns
Discussion
So our corsa-e decided to breakdown last Friday. A warning showed on the dash for around 2 seconds then the car juddered to a halt.
"Electric traction system fault".
However it stopped in the middle of the road (right on a junction) and could not be moved. The handbrake could be released, but I could not find any way to get the car into some kind of neutral to be able to push the car out of the way.
Luckily this was on a local road - but wifey is now rightly concerned about what would have happened if this was on a motorway or more major road!?
Is it normal for EVs to be 'locked' into gear/park and unable to be moved in the event of a breakdown?
"Electric traction system fault".
However it stopped in the middle of the road (right on a junction) and could not be moved. The handbrake could be released, but I could not find any way to get the car into some kind of neutral to be able to push the car out of the way.
Luckily this was on a local road - but wifey is now rightly concerned about what would have happened if this was on a motorway or more major road!?
Is it normal for EVs to be 'locked' into gear/park and unable to be moved in the event of a breakdown?
You've probably already tried this but as far as I know the car has to be on and ready to drive in order to select D/R/N. When turned off some default to Park. Mine simply beeps and tells me to select park but this happens automatically once the drivers door is opened. Another slight oddity in mine is that if you have auto-hold activated and then turn the car off, this activates the electric handbrake whereas without auto-hold you have to apply it yourself.
Can't imagine that an EV's failsafe mode would prevent moving a broken down car out of harms way.
Can't imagine that an EV's failsafe mode would prevent moving a broken down car out of harms way.
R32 said:
So our corsa-e decided to breakdown last Friday. A warning showed on the dash for around 2 seconds then the car juddered to a halt.
"Electric traction system fault".
However it stopped in the middle of the road (right on a junction) and could not be moved. The handbrake could be released, but I could not find any way to get the car into some kind of neutral to be able to push the car out of the way.
Luckily this was on a local road - but wifey is now rightly concerned about what would have happened if this was on a motorway or more major road!?
Is it normal for EVs to be 'locked' into gear/park and unable to be moved in the event of a breakdown?
How did you move it/resolve it in the end?"Electric traction system fault".
However it stopped in the middle of the road (right on a junction) and could not be moved. The handbrake could be released, but I could not find any way to get the car into some kind of neutral to be able to push the car out of the way.
Luckily this was on a local road - but wifey is now rightly concerned about what would have happened if this was on a motorway or more major road!?
Is it normal for EVs to be 'locked' into gear/park and unable to be moved in the event of a breakdown?
This is not an EV specific issue though, any car with an electronic gear selector/handbrake has the potential to die and make it very difficult to forcee neutral or release the handbrake.
Here's the 'convenient' method if you have an Evoque..
VeeReihenmotor6 said:
Ouch - could be a nasty bit of whiplash whilst thumbing through menus for a tow mode. Why have things become so complicated? Either get out and leave it there (rather than be enticed to sit there confused with menus) or drop the handbrake and push.
Auto hold electronic handbrakes are favoured because they generally make life far easier and must surely save hundreds if not thousands of people every year from rolling backwards on a steep hill having a little ding.. Back in the day twice someone rolled into me trying to dance between their clutch and handbrake and making a mess of it.Of course there is always a downside, which is that on the very rare occasion a modern car suffers a complete breakdown, becoming totally unresponsive to input, you are indeed left scratching your head.
R32 said:
The handbrake WAS released (that still seemed to work), however being front wheel drive the front wheels were still locked.
In the end it needed a flat bed and some 'sliders' (think that was what the recovery guy called them) under the front wheels and was dragged onto the truck.
It's not just an EV thing.In the end it needed a flat bed and some 'sliders' (think that was what the recovery guy called them) under the front wheels and was dragged onto the truck.
Many years ago, a mate of mine was trapped on the A34 by a new BMW X-something which had locked its transmission and refused to move from blocking both lanes. His suggestion of rolling it onto its roof and sledging it out of the way was allegedly 'not well received'.
OutInTheShed said:
R32 said:
The handbrake WAS released (that still seemed to work), however being front wheel drive the front wheels were still locked.
In the end it needed a flat bed and some 'sliders' (think that was what the recovery guy called them) under the front wheels and was dragged onto the truck.
It's not just an EV thing.In the end it needed a flat bed and some 'sliders' (think that was what the recovery guy called them) under the front wheels and was dragged onto the truck.
Many years ago, a mate of mine was trapped on the A34 by a new BMW X-something which had locked its transmission and refused to move from blocking both lanes. His suggestion of rolling it onto its roof and sledging it out of the way was allegedly 'not well received'.
The EV issue is that the drive is irrevocably connected to the wheel so if any of the few moving bits choose not to move there is no get out. But the number of permanently connected moving bits is no greater than a conventional car where gearbox, diff or drive shaft issues have the same effect. I know someone who blocked 2 lanes of the M25 in rush hour with a seized diff and another that had the car seize in the middle of traffic lights even though i warned him two days earlier that the noises coming from the gearbox heralded all the oily bit ending up on the outside.
The 'Handbrake' is not the issue here, it is the mechanical transmission parking lock that is present in BEVs as well as ICE cars with Auto transmissions.
If the 'gear' selector is in P(ark) then the parking lock will be engaged, so to overcome this it will be necessary to put the selector into N(eutral) instead to disengage the mechanical lock. On any vehicle with electronically controlled gear selector that may or may not be possible if the vehicle has already thrown a hissy fit and detected some sort of powertrain issue.
If the 'gear' selector is in P(ark) then the parking lock will be engaged, so to overcome this it will be necessary to put the selector into N(eutral) instead to disengage the mechanical lock. On any vehicle with electronically controlled gear selector that may or may not be possible if the vehicle has already thrown a hissy fit and detected some sort of powertrain issue.
Edited by chrisch77 on Tuesday 10th January 12:01
GT6k said:
The EV issue is that the drive is irrevocably connected to the wheel so if any of the few moving bits choose not to move there is no get out. But the number of permanently connected moving bits is no greater than a conventional car where gearbox, diff or drive shaft issues have the same effect. I know someone who blocked 2 lanes of the M25 in rush hour with a seized diff and another that had the car seize in the middle of traffic lights even though i warned him two days earlier that the noises coming from the gearbox heralded all the oily bit ending up on the outside.
I don't see why an electric motor connected to the wheel by a few gears (or even directly) needs to create very much drag. Motors with no current flowing generally don't take much torque to turn, particularly to turn slowly.
A BEV which coasts with low drag when no regeneration is happening should have low drag when being pushed.
There is no fundamental reason for EVs to 'lock up', it's all 'stuff' that's been designed in, fine when it works, a nuisance when it's broken.
That's 'modern cars' not EVs specifically.
You complicate cars to help incompetent drivers do hill starts and it all goes wrong from there....
GT6k said:
The EV issue is that the drive is irrevocably connected to the wheel so if any of the few moving bits choose not to move there is no get out. But the number of permanently connected moving bits is no greater than a conventional car where gearbox, diff or drive shaft issues have the same effect. I know someone who blocked 2 lanes of the M25 in rush hour with a seized diff and another that had the car seize in the middle of traffic lights even though i warned him two days earlier that the noises coming from the gearbox heralded all the oily bit ending up on the outside.
Yep, if either type of car become non responsive for whatever reason and remain in gear or the wheels mechanically locked, then you're stuck until a person with tools and knowledge comes along to help.I would guess that time will tell this is actually more of an ICE issues because, as in your example, there are more mechanical elements linked to the drivetrain that can potentially cease or implode, in addition to electronics failing and the driver no longer being able to select neutral etc.
It's a particular issue in modern 4x4 cars because you can't even lift the driven end of the car to move it on the free rolling end.
I heard the exact same issue happening with a few electric Peugeot 208/2008 (essentially the same kit as the Corsa). One resulting in a serious accident unfortunately. It's a software problem that I believe there is a fix (software update) for (available spring 22 from memory)
If your car has been in for a service in the last 9 months it should have had it (I'm not even sure it wasn't a recall (if not it should have been))
If your car has been in for a service in the last 9 months it should have had it (I'm not even sure it wasn't a recall (if not it should have been))
OutInTheShed said:
I don't see why an electric motor connected to the wheel by a few gears (or even directly) needs to create very much drag.
Motors with no current flowing generally don't take much torque to turn, particularly to turn slowly.
A BEV which coasts with low drag when no regeneration is happening should have low drag when being pushed.
There is no fundamental reason for EVs to 'lock up', it's all 'stuff' that's been designed in, fine when it works, a nuisance when it's broken.
That's 'modern cars' not EVs specifically.
You complicate cars to help incompetent drivers do hill starts and it all goes wrong from there....
Isn't the issue that the motor becomes a generator when spun up. If the car has issues there may be no control or monitoring over where that high voltage is going.Motors with no current flowing generally don't take much torque to turn, particularly to turn slowly.
A BEV which coasts with low drag when no regeneration is happening should have low drag when being pushed.
There is no fundamental reason for EVs to 'lock up', it's all 'stuff' that's been designed in, fine when it works, a nuisance when it's broken.
That's 'modern cars' not EVs specifically.
You complicate cars to help incompetent drivers do hill starts and it all goes wrong from there....
jinba-ittai said:
I heard the exact same issue happening with a few electric Peugeot 208/2008 (essentially the same kit as the Corsa). One resulting in a serious accident unfortunately. It's a software problem that I believe there is a fix (software update) for (available spring 22 from memory)
If your car has been in for a service in the last 9 months it should have had it (I'm not even sure it wasn't a recall (if not it should have been))
Interesting. My car was 'serviced' (first one, so its just a walkaround and fleece the customer for £100) around 3 months back. They didn't say they had done any updates though. If your car has been in for a service in the last 9 months it should have had it (I'm not even sure it wasn't a recall (if not it should have been))
Will check with them when they finally get the car. Its currently in storage with the RAC recovery partner who apparently is too busy to take it to the Vauxhall dealership!
buggalugs said:
OutInTheShed said:
I don't see why an electric motor connected to the wheel by a few gears (or even directly) needs to create very much drag.
Motors with no current flowing generally don't take much torque to turn, particularly to turn slowly.
A BEV which coasts with low drag when no regeneration is happening should have low drag when being pushed.
There is no fundamental reason for EVs to 'lock up', it's all 'stuff' that's been designed in, fine when it works, a nuisance when it's broken.
That's 'modern cars' not EVs specifically.
You complicate cars to help incompetent drivers do hill starts and it all goes wrong from there....
Isn't the issue that the motor becomes a generator when spun up. If the car has issues there may be no control or monitoring over where that high voltage is going.Motors with no current flowing generally don't take much torque to turn, particularly to turn slowly.
A BEV which coasts with low drag when no regeneration is happening should have low drag when being pushed.
There is no fundamental reason for EVs to 'lock up', it's all 'stuff' that's been designed in, fine when it works, a nuisance when it's broken.
That's 'modern cars' not EVs specifically.
You complicate cars to help incompetent drivers do hill starts and it all goes wrong from there....
There are millions of motors about which get driven and survive.
I'm told that some early PC fans could do damage if you spun them up accidentally using a Hoover.
A few diodes added and it's not a problem.
I suspect this is much more about avoiding the reliance on the driver using a parking brake.
I further suspect that the most common reason for a driver to forget to use the parking brake is 'because our other car does it for you....'
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