party wall position or boundary position?

[mattvanders]

Morning all, I have had good look for this information on PH &the general web and I am in contact with a party wall surveyor related to building work but I still can't get an answer (and not just the answer I want...).

I am carrying out a ground floor extension on the rear of a semi detached house, the walls and footings are being built on on my side of my property with me having taken the measurements off of the party wall location. The loft conversion and roof repairs (under a different PWN and planning application/permitted development) were all done again using the PW location for putting the tiles, guttering and facias back. The issue I have is that at one point the next door neighbour has moved the last 4 fence post and panels over the boundary line and one to my side of the property (the rest of the fence line is in the correct and straight) by 160mm if you are measuring from the PW location.

Due to there being a dispute/neighbours being PITA we had to get a surveyor for the ground floor extension. He has signed it off within the month (which I take it as because the footings are all on my size the property, it would of been 2 month if I had been building the wall on the boundary line with footing on the neighbours side or if it had been the loft extension side of things).

I plan to be installing thermal insolation externally at one point, my question is should I be planning the location the insolation runs up to on the front and back walls of my property based on the PW location or the boundary line when its in the wrong? I have asked the information to the survey which he hasn't given an answer due to the can of worms (basically states that the issue is a boundary dispute and not PW issue which then goes back to me see the gutter, fascia and roof being in the wrong place as well then). I will be talking with a number installers as well to get an idea how it is worked out and will be looking at getting a boundary dispute if I have too

[Mandat]

mattvanders said:

Morning all, I have had good look for this information on PH &the general web and I am in contact with a party wall surveyor related to building work but I still can't get an answer (and not just the answer I want...).

I am carrying out a ground floor extension on the rear of a semi detached house, the walls and footings are being built on on my side of my property with me having taken the measurements off of the party wall location. The loft conversion and roof repairs (under a different PWN and planning application/permitted development) were all done again using the PW location for putting the tiles, guttering and facias back. The issue I have is that at one point the next door neighbour has moved the last 4 fence post and panels over the boundary line and one to my side of the property (the rest of the fence line is in the correct and straight) by 160mm if you are measuring from the PW location.

Due to there being a dispute/neighbours being PITA we had to get a surveyor for the ground floor extension. He has signed it off within the month (which I take it as because the footings are all on my size the property, it would of been 2 month if I had been building the wall on the boundary line with footing on the neighbours side or if it had been the loft extension side of things).

I plan to be installing thermal insolation externally at one point, my question is should I be planning the location the insolation runs up to on the front and back walls of my property based on the PW location or the boundary line when its in the wrong? I have asked the information to the survey which he hasn't given an answer due to the can of worms (basically states that the issue is a boundary dispute and not PW issue which then goes back to me see the gutter, fascia and roof being in the wrong place as well then). I will be talking with a number installers as well to get an idea how it is worked out and will be looking at getting a boundary dispute if I have too

I'm a party wall surveyor but I'm not fully understanding what your question is?

You say that the neighbour has moved the fence line between your properties by 160mm onto your side of the boundary line. Does that mean that your new extension will now be over the fence line, and potentially in your neighbours garden (as they will see it)?

Can you provide a drawing or photos to better explain what the problem is?

[mattvanders]

Mandat said:

I'm a party wall surveyor but I'm not fully understanding what your question is?

You say that the neighbour has moved the fence line between your properties by 160mm onto your side of the boundary line. Does that mean that your new extension will now be over the fence line, and potentially in your neighbours garden (as they will see it)?

Can you provide a drawing or photos to better explain what the problem is?

Thanks for getting back to me quickly and sorry if I've badly explained myself . The property is semi detached. The extension has been pulled back from the party wall location (line of junction?) and boundary line so will not be on the neighbours side and also to give me access for maintenance and inspection so that's not the issue that I have. The survey that I have used as party of the PWA for the building work has confirmed this and is now approved for work to start. I will be going down a dispute about the fence line at a later date.

The main issue I have is when I plan to fit external thermal insolation does this normally get fitted up to the party wall position or to the boundary line position? The reason I ask this is if the roof line, fascia and gutting is positioned from the party wall location (standard practice) then why not external thermal insolation? I have been able to chat with insolation installers and they said they go by the party wall. When I spoke with my surveyor he basically would not answer and said he is not acting under a boundary dispute (which he isn't as its a party wall position identify).

will post up pictures

[mattvanders]

[mattvanders]

The neighbours house is number 96 for reference. What you can't easily see from screen print of the deeds is that not only isn't the plot of land not a square plot but there are a number of changes in direction in the boundaries at a number of fixed point (at the front of the house, and at the back of the house). other houses in the area have a similar system with boundary lines lined up with the party wall location - easer to see. Would fence line boundaries normally (or should that say always) be in line of the party wall location? Its a fixed datum point after all?

Forgot to say I measure the party wall boundary line by measuring the distance from the inside wall to a fixed point of the window frame and when back out on to the external wall with half a 9" brick thick added on for the centre. From see where they have painted the property they do not understand where or what the party wall is.

Edited by mattvanders on Thursday 12th January 16:20

[Foss62]

I had something like the reverse of this a few years ago. The neighbour’s builders took the fence line as correct and were going to build a good 6’’ beyond the centre of the internal party wall. This was a bit easier to work out in my case as you could count the bricks between the (original) upstairs windows of each house to work out exactly where the centre must be.
With no actual legal knowledge I took the common sense view that if you extend a semi detached property, then nothing you do should prevent your neighbour doing exactly the same thing, to the same dimensions, in the future.
Fortunately the neighbours agreed and got the builders to change the plans accordingly.

[N111BJG]

I am a Party Wall Surveyor, I think I understand your query. But to answer your questions I would require a site inspection to ensure that all the relevant information has been considered.

I recommend you engage a suitably experienced local surveyor to do that.

[mattvanders]

Foss62 said:

With no actual legal knowledge I took the common sense view that if you extend a semi detached property, then nothing you do should prevent your neighbour doing exactly the same thing, to the same dimensions, in the future.
Fortunately the neighbours agreed and got the builders to change the plans accordingly.

One of the issues with the plot of land (of our, next doors and other houses in the area marked up on the deeds) is that they are all not a square with right angle corner but all boundaries’ lines are straight up to a point of intersection.) Our house/next doors house does not site perfectly square on the plot because of this. Going by the deeds of both houses, on the back wall of our properties the boundary line is not perfectly square with a change of direct of the boundary and comes off at more of a 100-degree angle on my side instead of 90-degrees to the wall (so 80-degree angle on the neighbours).

From measuring the position of the party wall between our properties the fence that is owned by next door is 160mm across on to my property and more important is bolted to the wall of our property (not just footing on our side of the boundary line). The reason I believe is that when next doors patio was laid, rather than cut the slabs down to fit the plot of land the 80-degree angle they laid the slabs and then built the fence around them. The fence position does only effect 4/5 fence panels before returning to the correct straight line of the boundary.

Where I'm doing the extension perfectly at 90 degrees angle to my property the gap between my extension and the boundary should increase as you move away from the existing structure. If next door planned to put an extension on the back of their property and they wanted the extension to be built the same 90 degrees angle they would have to step back their extension to make sure they don't extend and going over the boundary line at the corner at the very least - this or build at the 80 degree angle. The current patio extends 3 metres away from their house at 90 degrees so the fence is to its current position out by 160mm, if they wanted to go further out it will cause even more problem...

[mattvanders]

N111BJG said:

I am a Party Wall Surveyor, I think I understand your query. But to answer your questions I would require a site inspection to ensure that all the relevant information has been considered.

I recommend you engage a suitably experienced local surveyor to do that.

This is what i will be going down but i wanted to make sure i do have a valid and reasonable concern. The surveyor we have had to use for the PWA hasn't been very helpful - i think because acting as a PWS and the award has to be independent.

I will be changing the fence on the other side of my boundary at a later date which we own. I am determined to NOT build it on on neighbours side as i can see it causes this type of agro.

[What The Deuces]

The neighbours look PH friendly (CTR, S3 and WRX on the drive), just tell them to move the fence back to where it should be and your question goes away.

[mattvanders]

What The Deuces said:

The neighbours look PH friendly (CTR, S3 and WRX on the drive), just tell them to move the fence back to where it should be and your question goes away.

We have approached them and that didn’t work particularly because they don’t understand how the party wall work for positioning, hence the positioning of their fence, their painted wall, roof tiles and facias/guttering are all in different locations. The pictures of the back of the whole of the house was before worked on the loft conversion started, after work was almost complete they accused us of cutting back 100mm of their facia which would put it roughly inline with the fence position. Lucky for us we have been taking enough photos to since a small ship, when you look at the picture of the back of the house you can see that the facia and guttering was their side of the painted line, so it hasn't been cut back the 100mm that they have stated, the blue line is the party wall location with us being 10mm over but also there paint being applied from 20mm up to 60mm over on our side.

You would think they were very PH friendly but it where car go to die I'm afraid...

[N111BJG]

mattvanders said:

N111BJG said:

I am a Party Wall Surveyor, I think I understand your query. But to answer your questions I would require a site inspection to ensure that all the relevant information has been considered.

I recommend you engage a suitably experienced local surveyor to do that.

This is what i will be going down but i wanted to make sure i do have a valid and reasonable concern. The surveyor we have had to use for the PWA hasn't been very helpful - i think because acting as a PWS and the award has to be independent.
.

He is there to advise you too, some surveyors trot out nonsense about not defining boundaries etc, but an element of that is necessary to do the job properly.

I see you are in Essex, I'm based in CO10 postcode if that's any good to you.

[mr rusty]

I would have a chat with the neighbour and try and work it so you build right on the party line and take down the fence (i.e. aim for the wall 50-50 both sides of the boundary - and I wouldn't argue about the odd 100mm - you'll still end up with a slightly bigger room if you can agree). This has the advantage to the neighbour that should they wish to also to extend it would reduce their costs because they could build off the new party wall. It would also ensure a better roof and also avoid stupid gaps between close extensions. As such, a documented shared party wall will add value to their property should they sell without building an extension.