Insurance and Penalty Points
Discussion
A bit of a bug bear for me is that driving points count for 3 years on your license and then are removed after 4. However, insurers ask for 5 years worth of history. Clearly this approach falls into the typical 'insurers justifying premium hikes' but my question is how far back can they actually see?
Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
8IKERDAVE said:
A bit of a bug bear for me is that driving points count for 3 years on your licence and then are removed after 4. However, insurers ask for 5 years worth of history. Clearly this approach falls into the typical 'insurers justifying premium hikes' but my question is how far back can they actually see?
Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
Points are never actually 'removed' as DVLA keeps a record of everything. I've seen matters from decades ago dredged up in court proceedings. Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
The justification for 5 years arises from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. An endorsement is a sentence for the purposes of the 1974 Act and becomes spent after 5 years.
agtlaw said:
8IKERDAVE said:
A bit of a bug bear for me is that driving points count for 3 years on your licence and then are removed after 4. However, insurers ask for 5 years worth of history. Clearly this approach falls into the typical 'insurers justifying premium hikes' but my question is how far back can they actually see?
Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
Points are never actually 'removed' as DVLA keeps a record of everything. I've seen matters from decades ago dredged up in court proceedings. Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
The justification for 5 years arises from the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974. An endorsement is a sentence for the purposes of the 1974 Act and becomes spent after 5 years.
8IKERDAVE said:
A bit of a bug bear for me is that driving points count for 3 years on your license and then are removed after 4. However, insurers ask for 5 years worth of history. Clearly this approach falls into the typical 'insurers justifying premium hikes' but my question is how far back can they actually see?
Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
Presumably in year 4 and 5, even if the points were hidden, they would see them from where they were declared previously in years 1 to 3 ? Assuming they use the same database which anyone can access through gov.uk, they won't be able to see any further back than 4 years. Or is there another database which gives them a bigger history? Don't misunderstand me here, I always declare everything and ensure all the information is accurate as I don't want a potential claim being voided down the line but I'm just interested to know.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
Drink driving remains on your licence for 11 years doesn't it?
It does, but unless it comes with a lengthy jail sentence the conviction still becomes spent after 5 years, and insurers cannot require you to disclose it, or use it to disadvantage you if you do disclose it. See page 13 here - https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/2812/...Yes, as OP stated, I’ve never understood the 4/5 year situation. My insurance recently came up for renewal so I rang them to inform them of a couple of amendments, one being I had collected an SP50 and 3 points. My last points were an SP 30 back in 2018, so I naively thought, lose 3, gain 3, back to all square, but unfortunately according to my insurance I now have 6 points which jacked my premium up by about £60!
They are allowed to ask and there is some correlation between points even at 4/5 years and additional risk, this lowers premiums for other customers without points so why wouldn’t they do it?
I should add though that realistically the effect of a single 3 points 4 years ago is going to be minimal, having multiple sets of points likely points to higher risk however.
As usual it will all be based on previous customers and their claims frequency and size.
In general anyone posting about “jacked up premium” or similar is confusing price rising for the sake of it with accuracy - U.K. mainstream insurance margins are slim, hence Direct Line cancelling their next dividend after increases claim frequency and cost increased and wiped any profit.
Seek out the thread on MCE to see the fallout of getting the pricing wrong and going bust.
I should add though that realistically the effect of a single 3 points 4 years ago is going to be minimal, having multiple sets of points likely points to higher risk however.
As usual it will all be based on previous customers and their claims frequency and size.
In general anyone posting about “jacked up premium” or similar is confusing price rising for the sake of it with accuracy - U.K. mainstream insurance margins are slim, hence Direct Line cancelling their next dividend after increases claim frequency and cost increased and wiped any profit.
Seek out the thread on MCE to see the fallout of getting the pricing wrong and going bust.
Edited by Dingu on Wednesday 25th January 20:19
Jordie Barretts sock said:
So after seven years, despite the conviction being spent, it's still on your licence so you have to declare it?
No, a spent conviction doesn't have to be declared to insurers, no matter what the wording of the question is. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/53/secti...
The Law said:
Subject to the provisions of any order made under subsection (4) below, where a question seeking information with respect to a person’s previous convictions, offences, conduct or circumstances is put to him or to any other person otherwise than in proceedings before a judicial authority—
(a)the question shall be treated as not relating to spent convictions or to any circumstances ancillary to spent convictions, and the answer thereto may be framed accordingly; and
(b)the person questioned shall not be subjected to any liability or otherwise prejudiced in law by reason of any failure to acknowledge or disclose a spent conviction or any circumstances ancillary to a spent conviction in his answer to the question.
There are exceptions if you're applying for certain jobs which require a particularly high degree of trust, such as the police, accountancy and jobs which involve working with children. However there is no exception for insurance companies.(a)the question shall be treated as not relating to spent convictions or to any circumstances ancillary to spent convictions, and the answer thereto may be framed accordingly; and
(b)the person questioned shall not be subjected to any liability or otherwise prejudiced in law by reason of any failure to acknowledge or disclose a spent conviction or any circumstances ancillary to a spent conviction in his answer to the question.
Most motoring convictions become spent after 5 years - regardless of whether the endorsement remains on your licence for a shorter or longer period. Without the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act there would be no reason in principle why insurers couldn't require you to disclose motoring convictions forever. I believe that some insurers in Ireland did ask if you had *ever* had any motoring convictions before the Irish passed their equivalent of the ROA in 2016.
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