Autos what am I missing?
Discussion
Ok so I’ll admit to a certain level of bias here I love a manual, I’m old school and just enjoy the interaction that comes with three pedals and a gear stick. I’ve had auto company cars in the past and I’ve found them to be dim witted constantly searching for the right ratio and just frustrating. Everyone has told me that DSG is the answer and that cars equipped with this are the perfect compromise. Earlier in the week my car was rear ended and the insurers have sorted me an Audi Q2 35tfsi Black Edition (£38k! 😳 but that’s for another chat) as a courtesy car. This is DSG and I’m sorry but it’s dire. It jumps from ratio to ratio seemingly at random and heaven forbid you roll up to a junction and want to accelerate away smoothly it’ll drop you into 1st and you’ll jerk away like I used to in my Nova SR in 1999! So in conclusion why are these better???
The problem with proclaiming “DSG” as the answer is that’s like proclaiming that cheese is perfect in a salad, it might be, but not every cheese is the same. There are many derivatives of DSG box. The ones attached to the sportier variants are usually better than the eco ones fitted to the cooking models.
Case in point, the DSG that I had in my S3 Saloon was great, the DSG in the wife’s old 1.4 Polo, not so much.
Either way though, ZF8HP is the answer, not DSG
The ZF 8HP in my 440i feels a lot nicer than any DSG variant I’ve used.
Case in point, the DSG that I had in my S3 Saloon was great, the DSG in the wife’s old 1.4 Polo, not so much.
Either way though, ZF8HP is the answer, not DSG
The ZF 8HP in my 440i feels a lot nicer than any DSG variant I’ve used.
Just like a manual, a DSG requires some learning, thought and practice on the part of the driver to use properly and get the best from.
Many seem to get in, use it badly on the assumption it doesn't require any thought and then proclaim it is awful, which is a flawed approach to any technology in my opinion, but one we see a great deal here.
Many seem to get in, use it badly on the assumption it doesn't require any thought and then proclaim it is awful, which is a flawed approach to any technology in my opinion, but one we see a great deal here.
I’ll admit that the BMW autos I’ve driven are slightly better but I’ve still got out of most of them thinking that the gearbox is the cars limiting factor. I’ve driven a manual and auto M140i for example and the manual was twice the car. I’ll concede that some cars are more suited to auto, big Jag’s, Merc’s, BMW’s etc but in everything else I’d go manual every time.
The problem I have is that my options are becoming increasingly limited when I look at my next car.
The problem I have is that my options are becoming increasingly limited when I look at my next car.
I think the sign of a good auto is that you don’t really have to intervene much. As stated the recent BMW gearbox is excellent and 99% of the time in sport mode it correctly anticipates gears even when on a high speed run.
Volvo’s recent auto is utterly dire and even in dynamic mode doesn’t anticipate anything.
Briefly drove the sporty DSG Skoda Superb which seemed pretty competent but a bit notchy. Not sure if you’re expected to change manually on it?
Volvo’s recent auto is utterly dire and even in dynamic mode doesn’t anticipate anything.
Briefly drove the sporty DSG Skoda Superb which seemed pretty competent but a bit notchy. Not sure if you’re expected to change manually on it?
Baldchap said:
Just like a manual, a DSG requires some learning, thought and practice on the part of the driver to use properly and get the best from.
Many seem to get in, use it badly on the assumption it doesn't require any thought and then proclaim it is awful, which is a flawed approach to any technology in my opinion, but one we see a great deal here.
I’ve done probably 30k miles in autos over the years most recently 20k in EAT8 equipped cars mated to petrol and diesel. I’ll happily adapt my driving style to suit the car I’m driving but whatever I did with the EAT8’s they were jerky and dim witted, the DSG is slightly better but still an enormous compromise. Perhaps if it was mated to a bigger engine with more torque it might work better but I’m not sure. Many seem to get in, use it badly on the assumption it doesn't require any thought and then proclaim it is awful, which is a flawed approach to any technology in my opinion, but one we see a great deal here.
Skoda Yeti dsg was a pita for me. Fast gear changes, but leaves you stranded when you do something the clutches aren't expecting, like slowing for roundabouts then pulling away quick instead of slowing more
Modern CVT like Toyota and Subaru are so much better for power delivery without hesitation.
Modern CVT like Toyota and Subaru are so much better for power delivery without hesitation.
In stop start traffic like London I would take an auto over manual all the time and nothing worse than being on a long journey and having a 1 hr traffic jam with on off clutch but for normal driving manual all the way.
My Rangie is brilliant and the gearbox 8 speed is perfect. Autos do adapt to how you drive and I guess you might also drive in a way that could wrong foot an auto if you are very ‘stabby" with the throttle or demand kick downs a lot. I remember one of my Dads friends who had an auto and my Dad said he just shouldn’t have an auto the way he drives as it just made the box shift up and down the whole time.
My Rangie is brilliant and the gearbox 8 speed is perfect. Autos do adapt to how you drive and I guess you might also drive in a way that could wrong foot an auto if you are very ‘stabby" with the throttle or demand kick downs a lot. I remember one of my Dads friends who had an auto and my Dad said he just shouldn’t have an auto the way he drives as it just made the box shift up and down the whole time.
Pica-Pica said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
I’ve hated every DSG-equipped car I’ve driven.
ZF8 boxes, on the other hand, are a thing of beauty in a big saloon.
Agreed. ZF8 and 335d here.ZF8 boxes, on the other hand, are a thing of beauty in a big saloon.
My E350d with 9 speed auto is fine for trundling along, but as soon as you want to do anything with a bit more urgency, it struggles. Rolling down to a roundabout is a great example as you say - slotting into a gap smoothly in auto mode is the hardest. You know there's enough torque to pull 3rd sensibly, but a squeeze too much throttle and it dumps into 2nd with a bang and wastes time and ruins smoothness. Frustratingly compromised. I've not driven a ZF8, but I can't see how it would be hugely better as it is impossible for the car to be psychic in these types of situation.
The answer is to ditch the need for a multi-ratio gearbox and go EV. Completely gets rid of the limitations of ICE drivetrains.
The answer is to ditch the need for a multi-ratio gearbox and go EV. Completely gets rid of the limitations of ICE drivetrains.
Edited by plfrench on Saturday 28th January 09:17
Caddyshack said:
In stop start traffic like London I would take an auto over manual all the time and nothing worse than being on a long journey and having a 1 hr traffic jam with on off clutch but for normal driving manual all the way.
My Rangie is brilliant and the gearbox 8 speed is perfect. Autos do adapt to how you drive and I guess you might also drive in a way that could wrong foot an auto if you are very ‘stabby" with the throttle or demand kick downs a lot. I remember one of my Dads friends who had an auto and my Dad said he just shouldn’t have an auto the way he drives as it just made the box shift up and down the whole time.
It’s more an issue in stop start traffic for me. On back roads and motorways the DSG has been ok other than the delay when you come out of a corner while it sorts itself out it’s pretty much unobtrusive. The problem comes when you’re slowing down to a roundabout or junction the cars electronics obviously decide you’re going to stop and if you accelerate away no matter how smooth and gentle you are on the throttle you get either a jerky response because it drops into 1st or a massive pause while it changes back up to 2nd having selected 1st in anticipation of coming to a stop. I guess the solution is using the manual override but then why not have a proper manual.My Rangie is brilliant and the gearbox 8 speed is perfect. Autos do adapt to how you drive and I guess you might also drive in a way that could wrong foot an auto if you are very ‘stabby" with the throttle or demand kick downs a lot. I remember one of my Dads friends who had an auto and my Dad said he just shouldn’t have an auto the way he drives as it just made the box shift up and down the whole time.
As I mentioned previously I think a lot of the problem is that the engine and gearbox aren’t massively compatible on a lot of these cars. The 1.5 turbo in the Q2 and the 1.2 puretech mated to the EAT8 don’t have much torque and I think this confuses the boxes. They’re also programmed for economy which means they want to be in the highest gear possible which isn’t always where you want to be as a driver. I’ll agree with you on the Range Rovers though I’ve driven a few with either V6 or V8 diesels and they’re superb and perfectly suited to the gearbox.
I'll defend the DSG in a small car, but I must first quantify this by saying it's the first auto I've ever driven in 43 years of driving so I have no comparison.
Thanks to the state of the used car market I've been using a 1.2 Yeti for the last 2 years.
Now this has the 7 speed dry clutch VAG DSG which seemed to have the worst reputation ever on the internet!
Even read on here on somebody who proclaimed they were getting rid of this exact car as the gearbox was trying to kill him!
Well I think it's pretty good for what it is, smooth changes, you can make it do pretty much what you want with the throttle. Ok it's not very quick but in a 1.2 Yeti who cares
My only criticism would be it's not the best for pulling out of junctions/roundabouts as it will go into neutral if you're waiting for long, but this can be can be driven round by different pressure on the brake pedal.
Would I want one in a performance car. No.
For a runaround. Perfect.
Thanks to the state of the used car market I've been using a 1.2 Yeti for the last 2 years.
Now this has the 7 speed dry clutch VAG DSG which seemed to have the worst reputation ever on the internet!
Even read on here on somebody who proclaimed they were getting rid of this exact car as the gearbox was trying to kill him!
Well I think it's pretty good for what it is, smooth changes, you can make it do pretty much what you want with the throttle. Ok it's not very quick but in a 1.2 Yeti who cares
My only criticism would be it's not the best for pulling out of junctions/roundabouts as it will go into neutral if you're waiting for long, but this can be can be driven round by different pressure on the brake pedal.
Would I want one in a performance car. No.
For a runaround. Perfect.
plfrench said:
My E350d with 9 speed auto is fine for trundling along, but as soon as you want to do anything with a bit more urgency, it struggles. Rolling down to a roundabout is a great example as you say - slotting into a gap smoothly in auto mode is the hardest. You know there's enough torque to pull 3rd sensibly, but a squeeze too much throttle and it dumps into 2nd with a bang and wastes time and ruins smoothness. Frustratingly compromised. I've not driven a ZF8, but I can't see how it would be hugely better as it is impossible for the car to be psychic in these types of situation.
The answer is to ditch the need for a multi-ratio gearbox and go EV. Completely gets rid of the limitations of ICE drivetrains.
Drive one and you will find out.The answer is to ditch the need for a multi-ratio gearbox and go EV. Completely gets rid of the limitations of ICE drivetrains.
Edited by plfrench on Saturday 28th January 09:17
All the Mercedes auto boxes have been very sluggish compared to the ZF8, there really is no comparison.
Chris944_S2 said:
I’ve found autos are more dependent on the type of driver rather than the type of box.
Drivers who are smooth in manual cars get along well with automatics. Ham fisted drivers who have a binary approach to the throttle pedal however tend to confuse the hell out of slushmatics.
Agreed.Drivers who are smooth in manual cars get along well with automatics. Ham fisted drivers who have a binary approach to the throttle pedal however tend to confuse the hell out of slushmatics.
If this was the 70s with a 3 speed auto I'd understand, but with modern 7+ gear autos they're incredibly smooth.
Second only to an EV.
Speaking here as someone with an EV, that replaced a 6 gear auto, and own a 5 gear V8, I've never had any issues with any of them
sociopath said:
Agreed.
If this was the 70s with a 3 speed auto I'd understand, but with modern 7+ gear autos they're incredibly smooth.
Second only to an EV.
Speaking here as someone with an EV, that replaced a 6 gear auto, and own a 5 gear V8, I've never had any issues with any of them
We also learn how to drive with autos. I can remember having the same experiences when I first drove one, but now I seem hard-wired to anticipate and work-in the tiny intervals of delay. The flip can be said of manual transmissions, pedal travel and clunch slip should equal delay but we mentally tune ourselves to work to the bite point etc. If this was the 70s with a 3 speed auto I'd understand, but with modern 7+ gear autos they're incredibly smooth.
Second only to an EV.
Speaking here as someone with an EV, that replaced a 6 gear auto, and own a 5 gear V8, I've never had any issues with any of them
Again, ZF8 - great.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff