Scammed by Italian Car Dealer
Discussion
Hi guys, just looking for advice to try and move forward,feel like an idiot and didn't get any refund joy via my bank.
Last year I found a very original,low mileage green fiat 126 (rare 1st series, I had owned a similar car for years in same interior and exterior colour and had always regretted selling it)
I contacted the seller he had several cars for sale (still does) we spoke, messaged via WhatsApp and video called via WhatsApp. He always replied instantly. His advert had around 40 detailed images of the car.
I had a walk round video of the car at his premises and we agreed a price (not a 'too good to be true' price but not excessive either) and I paid deposit on it with the balance due in a month or two as further funds I was expecting came in, he agreed and was very chilled about holding the car and showed me where it will be parked up out the way inside etc. I received a receipt for the deposit. (Although quite basic)
We were still in contact ok regularly and he sent me another video whereby he stated the date in the video as he showed me something I queried in relation to the bodywork just before final payment was made and shipping arrangements where made to get the car to UK.
I had found an independent shipper who had dealt with him previously to bring a car here and he said he was legit and that previous deal went ok.
I made the final payment and didn't get a receipt afterwards but he said he was dealing with number plate deregistration. After many many attempts from my shipping driver to collect the car over the following 2 months the seller kept making excuses he was on holiday,away on business collecting other cars etc but could never pin him down. He stopped answering calls but occasionally messaged with dates to collect the car that never happened. Fast forward to threatening legal action and he said he'd return my money but again that still hasn't happened.(several dates promised for it to be sent)
In the meantime my bank said they would try and get a refund but could only do so if he had funds available and by contacting his bank then his bank would inform him to reverse the payment (never gonna happen was it!) and also as the Italian bank doesn't support the same fraud regs of the UK they are not bound to abide by any section 75 refunding. Natwest took 3 months and couldn't refund me.
Sorry for long post but wanted to explain it fully, anyone know how I can make it legally happen? Would I need to find an Italian lawyer to send paperwork to him? I've no idea the costs involved or process to try and retrieve my money. The seller said it's not fraud but miscommunication,ah ok then! I want to make other potential buyers he has aware of this also. It's been 8 months since final payment, I want to fly out there and deal with him but feel it might get out of hand with a face to face situation.
Thanks in advance..
Last year I found a very original,low mileage green fiat 126 (rare 1st series, I had owned a similar car for years in same interior and exterior colour and had always regretted selling it)
I contacted the seller he had several cars for sale (still does) we spoke, messaged via WhatsApp and video called via WhatsApp. He always replied instantly. His advert had around 40 detailed images of the car.
I had a walk round video of the car at his premises and we agreed a price (not a 'too good to be true' price but not excessive either) and I paid deposit on it with the balance due in a month or two as further funds I was expecting came in, he agreed and was very chilled about holding the car and showed me where it will be parked up out the way inside etc. I received a receipt for the deposit. (Although quite basic)
We were still in contact ok regularly and he sent me another video whereby he stated the date in the video as he showed me something I queried in relation to the bodywork just before final payment was made and shipping arrangements where made to get the car to UK.
I had found an independent shipper who had dealt with him previously to bring a car here and he said he was legit and that previous deal went ok.
I made the final payment and didn't get a receipt afterwards but he said he was dealing with number plate deregistration. After many many attempts from my shipping driver to collect the car over the following 2 months the seller kept making excuses he was on holiday,away on business collecting other cars etc but could never pin him down. He stopped answering calls but occasionally messaged with dates to collect the car that never happened. Fast forward to threatening legal action and he said he'd return my money but again that still hasn't happened.(several dates promised for it to be sent)
In the meantime my bank said they would try and get a refund but could only do so if he had funds available and by contacting his bank then his bank would inform him to reverse the payment (never gonna happen was it!) and also as the Italian bank doesn't support the same fraud regs of the UK they are not bound to abide by any section 75 refunding. Natwest took 3 months and couldn't refund me.
Sorry for long post but wanted to explain it fully, anyone know how I can make it legally happen? Would I need to find an Italian lawyer to send paperwork to him? I've no idea the costs involved or process to try and retrieve my money. The seller said it's not fraud but miscommunication,ah ok then! I want to make other potential buyers he has aware of this also. It's been 8 months since final payment, I want to fly out there and deal with him but feel it might get out of hand with a face to face situation.
Thanks in advance..
Edited by Brett-iauxx on Sunday 29th January 14:42
swisstoni said:
I’d have a chat with your local Citizens Advice Bureau. I’m sure they’ll have someone who can speak to you about international disputes.
But my gut reaction is to pay him a surprise visit at his premises.
Presumably the deal is formed in Italian law, so I doubt CAB can help. I would think a bilingual (local) lawyer would be the best bet, at least to pay for some advice. But my gut reaction is to pay him a surprise visit at his premises.
Italian police can/do make "enquiries" for unpaid debts, so they would be a good place to start. Also you need an Italian lawyer, there is little point dealing with anyone in the UK as the contract will be under Italian law. Certainly for the sake of a £40 Ryanair return flight and a couple of days in Italy I'd be flying out there and saying hello too.
Thanks Condi, yes I looked at flights at the end of summer and they were over 400 quid to Florence,add car hire and hotels and costs this side it was adding up and would take a large 'friend' with me! I was still being promised funds being returned at the time. Certainly cheaper now but I think if I go over I'll land up getting locked up over there as don't trust myself if I get hold of him! I will look into lawyer options and costs. He did seem to get very nervous when I mentioned lawyers !
Brett-iauxx said:
Hi guys, just looking for advice to try and move forward,feel like an idiot and didn't get any refund joy via my bank.
Last year I found a very original,low mileage green fiat 126 (rare 1st series, I had owned a similar car for years in same interior and exterior colour and had always regretted selling it)
I contacted the seller he had several cars for sale (still does) we spoke, messaged via WhatsApp and video called via WhatsApp. He always replied instantly. His advert had around 40 detailed images of the car.
I had a walk round video of the car at his premises and we agreed a price (not a 'too good to be true' price but not excessive either) and I paid deposit on it with the balance due in a month or two as further funds I was expecting came in, he agreed and was very chilled about holding the car and showed me where it will be parked up out the way inside etc. I received a receipt for the deposit. (Although quite basic)
We were still in contact ok regularly and he sent me another video whereby he stated the date in the video as he showed me something I queried in relation to the bodywork just before final payment was made and shipping arrangements where made to get the car to UK.
I had found an independent shipper who had dealt with him previously to bring a car here and he said he was legit and that previous deal went ok.
I made the final payment and didn't get a receipt afterwards but he said he was dealing with number plate deregistration. After many many attempts from my shipping driver to collect the car over the following 2 months the seller kept making excuses he was on holiday,away on business collecting other cars etc but could never pin him down. He stopped answering calls but occasionally messaged with dates to collect the car that never happened. Fast forward to threatening legal action and he said he'd return my money but again that still hasn't happened.(several dates promised for it to be sent)
In the meantime my bank said they would try and get a refund but could only do so if he had funds available and by contacting his bank then his bank would inform him to reverse the payment (never gonna happen was it!) and also as the Italian bank doesn't support the same fraud regs of the UK they are not bound to abide by any section 75 refunding. Natwest took 3 months and couldn't refund me.
Sorry for long post but wanted to explain it fully, anyone know how I can make it legally happen? Would I need to find an Italian lawyer to send paperwork to him? I've no idea the costs involved or process to try and retrieve my money. The seller said it's not fraud but miscommunication,ah ok then! I want to make other potential buyers he has aware of this also. It's been 8 months since final payment, I want to fly out there and deal with him but feel it might get out of hand with a face to face situation.
Thanks in advance..
How much money are we talking about?Last year I found a very original,low mileage green fiat 126 (rare 1st series, I had owned a similar car for years in same interior and exterior colour and had always regretted selling it)
I contacted the seller he had several cars for sale (still does) we spoke, messaged via WhatsApp and video called via WhatsApp. He always replied instantly. His advert had around 40 detailed images of the car.
I had a walk round video of the car at his premises and we agreed a price (not a 'too good to be true' price but not excessive either) and I paid deposit on it with the balance due in a month or two as further funds I was expecting came in, he agreed and was very chilled about holding the car and showed me where it will be parked up out the way inside etc. I received a receipt for the deposit. (Although quite basic)
We were still in contact ok regularly and he sent me another video whereby he stated the date in the video as he showed me something I queried in relation to the bodywork just before final payment was made and shipping arrangements where made to get the car to UK.
I had found an independent shipper who had dealt with him previously to bring a car here and he said he was legit and that previous deal went ok.
I made the final payment and didn't get a receipt afterwards but he said he was dealing with number plate deregistration. After many many attempts from my shipping driver to collect the car over the following 2 months the seller kept making excuses he was on holiday,away on business collecting other cars etc but could never pin him down. He stopped answering calls but occasionally messaged with dates to collect the car that never happened. Fast forward to threatening legal action and he said he'd return my money but again that still hasn't happened.(several dates promised for it to be sent)
In the meantime my bank said they would try and get a refund but could only do so if he had funds available and by contacting his bank then his bank would inform him to reverse the payment (never gonna happen was it!) and also as the Italian bank doesn't support the same fraud regs of the UK they are not bound to abide by any section 75 refunding. Natwest took 3 months and couldn't refund me.
Sorry for long post but wanted to explain it fully, anyone know how I can make it legally happen? Would I need to find an Italian lawyer to send paperwork to him? I've no idea the costs involved or process to try and retrieve my money. The seller said it's not fraud but miscommunication,ah ok then! I want to make other potential buyers he has aware of this also. It's been 8 months since final payment, I want to fly out there and deal with him but feel it might get out of hand with a face to face situation.
Thanks in advance..
Edited by Brett-iauxx on Sunday 29th January 14:42
Brett-iauxx said:
Thanks Condi, yes I looked at flights at the end of summer and they were over 400 quid to Florence,add car hire and hotels and costs this side it was adding up and would take a large 'friend' with me! I was still being promised funds being returned at the time. Certainly cheaper now but I think if I go over I'll land up getting locked up over there as don't trust myself if I get hold of him! I will look into lawyer options and costs. He did seem to get very nervous when I mentioned lawyers !
Honestly I'd have a chat with the police. A colleague at work had some financial problems in Italy and they paid a visit to the address and the problems were solved... Although the person (his father in law) who talked to the police was an actual Italian living in Italy so may have had more success than an English person making the same request. If it's North Italy you may stand more chance of success than in the South. Things get a bit Mafia-y down there!
Mate, in a post Brexit world you’re in for a whole heap of pain. Good luck with the police and courts over there. The first thing you’ll have to do, depending on the sums involved, is to get yourself an English speaking Italian lawyer and then start the court process over there which could and will take months to just get a court date. You cannot represent yourself in Italian courts and they don’t speak English nor will they translate your texts from English to Italian. You’ll have to do it.
Assuming it ends up In court and they find in your favour, good luck in getting him to pay. Ask me how I know.
Your best bet is through your Bank, but we’re outside the EU - 3rd country and all that. They don’t care.
Assuming it ends up In court and they find in your favour, good luck in getting him to pay. Ask me how I know.
Your best bet is through your Bank, but we’re outside the EU - 3rd country and all that. They don’t care.
Canon_Fodder said:
Perhaps try escalating the bank claim to the ombudsman - nothing to lose by doing that
Thanks canon fodder, true, rather than do nothing is worth a try, NatWest were quite rubbish,blamed his bank for not being part of an anti fraud type policy then ultimately blamed me for not being diligent.i felt I had been and had thought I'd go over initially and try and road trip back with it..prior to Brexit would have been easiermaz8062 said:
Mate, in a post Brexit world you’re in for a whole heap of pain. Good luck with the police and courts over there. The first thing you’ll have to do, depending on the sums involved, is to get yourself an English speaking Italian lawyer and then start the court process over there which could and will take months to just get a court date. You cannot represent yourself in Italian courts and they don’t speak English nor will they translate your texts from English to Italian. You’ll have to do it.
Assuming it ends up In court and they find in your favour, good luck in getting him to pay. Ask me how I know.
Your best bet is through your Bank, but we’re outside the EU - 3rd country and all that. They don’t care.
Hey Max, thanks for reply, yes that sounds like what I expected.. Not exactly known for lack of red tape out there are they! Yep, bank fobbed me off blaming me for not having taking adequate steps to ensure it wasnt a scam. I was fairly sure he would be ok and he had sent cars all over UK..I have probably a hundred voice and text messages I've saved from him. He still has 72 vehicles for sale on the website he sells through. No bad reviews..yet!Assuming it ends up In court and they find in your favour, good luck in getting him to pay. Ask me how I know.
Your best bet is through your Bank, but we’re outside the EU - 3rd country and all that. They don’t care.
BananaFama said:
No naming and shaming but where is the dealer ?
I know people in Italy who live not too far away from Florence that you mentioned flying to .
Based in Subbiano, Arezzo area. My car is showing on his sold page through the website he sells through! I think Florence airport is an hour north.I know people in Italy who live not too far away from Florence that you mentioned flying to .
Edited by BananaFama on Sunday 29th January 20:33
Brett-iauxx said:
BananaFama said:
No naming and shaming but where is the dealer ?
I know people in Italy who live not too far away from Florence that you mentioned flying to .
Based in Subbiano, Arezzo area. My car is showing on his sold page through the website he sells through! I think Florence airport is an hour north.I know people in Italy who live not too far away from Florence that you mentioned flying to .
Edited by BananaFama on Sunday 29th January 20:33
Best of luck sorting this out .
BananaFama said:
Brett-iauxx said:
BananaFama said:
No naming and shaming but where is the dealer ?
I know people in Italy who live not too far away from Florence that you mentioned flying to .
Based in Subbiano, Arezzo area. My car is showing on his sold page through the website he sells through! I think Florence airport is an hour north.I know people in Italy who live not too far away from Florence that you mentioned flying to .
Edited by BananaFama on Sunday 29th January 20:33
Best of luck sorting this out .
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