Educate me on towing and weight

[RB Will]

Currently looking into options for towing my junk around and questioning myself regards weights.

Been towing stuff for years but generally small stuff like a jetski, small farm trailer and towing with a 4x4 or big pickup which just shrugs it off. Have also done a bit of car towing with normal cars back in the day. Only ever had one oh st moment with a car on a particularly large farm spec flat bed towing then with my 2004 Subaru Legacy estate, but that was more to do with the bd truck ruts on the M5 than weight I think.

I keep reading that ideally you should not be towing anything that is more than about 80% of the tow vehicles weight. which has made me a bit nervous to bung a tow bar on the Wife's Vitara.

Currently I'd be looking to tow my Nomad on a reasonably small open trailer. Nomad weighs about 700kg and trailers were about 400kg from memory. So 1100ish all in. The Vitara apparently weighs about 1200kg (bloody amazing for a modern car!) and has a towing capacity of 1200kg. So in theory could tow it but is a bit close and may not be all that stable? If I get rid of the Nomad I'd be expecting to get something even lighter like a bike engined 7 or a SXS for off roading.
Possibly considering swapping up to a small estate that weighs about 1600kg with a 1500kg towing weight. Would this be considerably better?

But that got me thinking how much the weight ratio matters? There are 4x4s, vans , pickups with 3500kg capacity but only weigh about 2000kg themselves so how does that work?

And on top of this, just checking, when towing is it that the trailer has to be plated to no more than the towing capacity of the tow car rather than what the actual train weight comes in at?

Thanks for any help.

[smokey mow]

Single or twin axle trailer?

I’m my experience a twin axle is more forgiving if you don’t balance the load on the trailer correctly but personally I prefer the lighter weight of a single axle trailer.

For years I towed a Westfield (600kg) on a single axle Woodford lightweight trailer (340kg) behind a mk4 golf tdi and not once had any concerning moments. These days I’m still towing much the same behind my 2004 Impreza.

[RB Will]

All the ones I've looked at recently have been twin axle. Don't think I've ever driven a single axle car trailer, the smaller stuff was but all well under 750kg all in.

[Jap90s]

The 80% is the simplistic suggestion of the Caravan Club IIRC

I regularly tow significantly more than the towing vehicle - it's fine if you're sensible

You have the maximum suggested towing weight by the manufacturer generally max 3500kg for 4x4 etc but you can exceed lower vehicle limits (at your own risk) as long as you stay within the vehicles Gross Train Weight

Have a google as it's been discussed at length many times before

[Dan_The_Man]

RB Will said:

The Vitara apparently weighs about 1200kg (bloody amazing for a modern car!) and has a towing capacity of 1200kg. So in theory could tow it but is a bit close and may not be all that stable? .

Manufacturers towing capacity says you can, and they factor in some safety so just give it a try. Buy a noseweight spring device so you can get the perfect nose balance (they are about a tenner).

[RB Will]

Not heard of one of those before, will look into it. Thanks all

[Scrump]

Sticky at the top of this forum which may help:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[Condi]

Jap90s said:

You have the maximum suggested towing weight by the manufacturer generally max 3500kg for 4x4 etc but you can exceed lower vehicle limits (at your own risk) as long as you stay within the vehicles Gross Train Weight

Are you sure about that?

Manufacturers have to get their vehicles legally approved for towing, and you would be on a very sticky wicket if caught towing above the manufacturers approved weight as mentioned on the V5 I would expect.

The government website

[MustangGT]

Jap90s said:

The 80% is the simplistic suggestion of the Caravan Club IIRC

I regularly tow significantly more than the towing vehicle - it's fine if you're sensible

You have the maximum suggested towing weight by the manufacturer generally max 3500kg for 4x4 etc but you can exceed lower vehicle limits (at your own risk) as long as you stay within the vehicles Gross Train Weight

Have a google as it's been discussed at length many times before

Most of that is incorrect.

Max towing weights for braked and un-braked trailers are stated on the V5C. These are not to be exceeded at any time.

Some 4x4 are rated at 3.5t, but only some.

Max train weight comes in where towing vehicle loaded weight and trailer weight are added together.

For example, my Jeep Cherokee (4x4) has a braked trailer max of 2370kg, un-braked of 450kg. Max vehicle weight is 2495kg. None of those should be exceeded at any time. I don't have access to the vehicle to check the max train weight right now.

[Jap90s]

MustangGT said:

Jap90s said:

The 80% is the simplistic suggestion of the Caravan Club IIRC

I regularly tow significantly more than the towing vehicle - it's fine if you're sensible

You have the maximum suggested towing weight by the manufacturer generally max 3500kg for 4x4 etc but you can exceed lower vehicle limits (at your own risk) as long as you stay within the vehicles Gross Train Weight

Have a google as it's been discussed at length many times before

Most of that is incorrect.

Max towing weights for braked and un-braked trailers are stated on the V5C. These are not to be exceeded at any time.

Some 4x4 are rated at 3.5t, but only some.

Max train weight comes in where towing vehicle loaded weight and trailer weight are added together.

For example, my Jeep Cherokee (4x4) has a braked trailer max of 2370kg, un-braked of 450kg. Max vehicle weight is 2495kg. None of those should be exceeded at any time. I don't have access to the vehicle to check the max train weight right now.

I'm correct - I've been though all this many times, I tow for a living and had it confirmed by VOSA

If you exceed the manufacturer's recommended weight the onus is on you but you can't be prosecuted for it as long as you're within GTW as the weight can be towed OR carried

The main issue with weight is starting on a hill - so when you're towing heavy objects, don't stop on a steep hill ! That's why 4x4 can tow heavier weights, it's not the towing, it's the traction to move off

Obviously with boxes of stuff you're better off carrying it but you can't if it's one massive object

[Jap90s]

Condi said:

Are you sure about that?

Manufacturers have to get their vehicles legally approved for towing, and you would be on a very sticky wicket if caught towing above the manufacturers approved weight as mentioned on the V5 I would expect.

The government website

Positive - confirmed with VOSA / DVSA

[Jap90s]

Email to VOSA Technical Officer:

I have a XXXX and I want to confirm what it can legally carry / tow.

The plate under the bonnet gives me 2800 and 4500

I believe these to be GVW and GTW

I believe the kerb weight to be 1750kg

Am I correct that I can tow 4500 - 1750 = 2750kg with an empty van and

4500 - 2800 = 1700kg with a fully loaded van ?

My (German) handbook states recc max tow capacity is 2000kg but I believe that is to do with the power and hill starting

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Reply:

If you know the unladen weight of the trailer and the unladen weight of the vehicle and subtract these figures from the GTW of 4500kg then this would be your payload which should be distributed over the vehicle and trailer.

However the thing now to remember is that none of the axle weights are exceeded either on the vehicle or trailer.

---

I pointed out that I can't cut up the load - as it's a car

---

Good morning the train weight regulations as far as I’m aware have not changed, the maximum towable mass your manufacturer states 2000Kg might be to do with the tow bar maximum towable force, therefore it might require checking. With an empty van 1850Kgs you could tow up to the combination train weight of 4940Kgs but that would be unadvisable as the potential trailer weight would be 3090 Kgs which is more than the van weight.

---

So as I said, if you exceed the max recommended tow weight, it's down to you, ie you have to know what you're doing and drive accordingly but it isn't illegal in itself

I have towed thousands of miles far over the recommended limit without issue as have many others

You only have to look at old Land Rovers that weigh approx 1500kg and have a max recommended tow capacity of 3500kg to see that you can tow well over the vehicle weight and a SWB Land Rover is a horrible tow vehicle, I prefer a LWB van

[MustangGT]

I think I would like that conversation with VOSA myself, rather than an internet poster. However, I do concede you may be correct. I note the V5C says 'Technical permissible maximum towable mass of trailer' rather than just 'Maximum permissible mass of trailer'.

If I am correct the Cherokee states 4990kg for MTW, although the plate has no row titles..

Vehicle maxed out at 2495, plus 2375 is less than 4990.

I tow a trailer plated at 2250kg, no problems, although my Cherokee is the 200bhp diesel variant rather than a 140 or 170 bhp version.

[Captain Answer]

"80% Rule" is for caravans, generally sensible as some are fairly big and have a good windage factor to them

The vehicles Plated Gross Train Weight can't be exceeded, nor can you tow more than 3500kg for the trailer + trailer load on the road

A lot of trailers have their own plates for what they weigh and what they permit as a load, that can't be exceeded

What you do inbetween that is down to the driver, the example of borrowing from the GTW above the recommended towing limit is legally ok as long as you are inside GTW

My touareg I can pull 3.5T behind, not many C class vehicles have that high a rating tho - most I had behind was a 16ft ifor and another touareg on it, it wasn't struggling at all with that, prob about 2.6T behind

[Jap90s]

MustangGT said:

I think I would like that conversation with VOSA myself, rather than an internet poster.

I would encourage you to do so - although it's the DVSA now

I did it because I couldn't find any straight answers on the internet

[littleredrooster]

Just to reiterate what Scrump kindly pointed out earlier, as this is still rumbling on...

Scrump said:

Sticky at the top of this forum which may help:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

[300bhp/ton]

RB Will said:

I keep reading that ideally you should not be towing anything that is more than about 80% of the tow vehicles weight.

Personally I think that is a load of tosh and probably comes from the caravan club (I know it is on their site) and probably hails from the 1950's or 60s when you'd have not had official tow ratings and people would have been in something small like a Ford 100E or Morris Minor with bugger all power and very poor brakes.

These days it is just bad advice. If it wasn't every car maker would legally have to lower their official tow ratings. It would also make it impossible on a normal B category licence to tow 3500kg, as you be in need to drive a car weighing in at 4300kg (or find one).


Must watch video for towing...

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 1st February 16:33

[paintman]

300bhp/ton said:

RB Will said:

I keep reading that ideally you should not be towing anything that is more than about 80% of the tow vehicles weight.

Personally I think that is a load of tosh and probably comes from the caravan club (I know it is on their site) and probably hails from the 1950's or 60s when you'd have not had official tow ratings and people would have been in something small like a Ford 100E or Morris Minor with bugger all power and very poor brakes.

These days it is just bad advice. If it wasn't every car maker would legally have to lower their official tow ratings. It would also make it impossible on a normal B category licence to tow 3500kg, as you be in need to drive a car weighing in at 4300kg (or find one).

Edited by 300bhp/ton on Wednesday 1st February 16:33

Since 2017 they have been known as 'The Caravan and Motorhome Club' and their website talks about 85%.
Other organisations including the RAC also talk about 'the 85% rule'.
It isn't a rule in law, merely a suggestion on their part.

[AlwynMike]

The 85% "rule" is now pooh poohed amongst the caravan fraternity.
It may be useful for a novice to towing to keep to that 85% or thereabouts. For the experienced, just ignore it.
Many caravan folk tow over 100% quite happily.
The subject of towing weights is complex due to a lot of misinformation, never mind the B and B+E changes.
Maximum Technically Permitted means you CANNOT legally exceed this.

[V8 Bob]

Also need to consider the tow hitch weight of the tow vehicle and how well you can balance your trailer weight. Too heavy and it leaves the tow cars steering at risk, Too light and it increases risk of trailer jackknifing as it “lifts” rear of tow car especially under heavy braking.
The greater % of the weight being towed to the weight of the tow vehicle the more care that is required and limiting the speed to avoid getting into risky situations