Discussion
Despite privately buying and selling a very large number of cars during my lifetime I learned something about the process today.
I have always believed that my responsibility regarding transfer of ownership ended with sending off the V5 by post or completing the transfer online. I don't have a particular preference when buying or selling but traditionally I've always used the post. Never been an issue.
Late last year I sold a car and sent off the V5 by post. Around November I got a reminder that the car needed to be taxed so I scrawled 'no longer my car on the reminder, sold on XX/XX/2022' and returned it to the DVLA. At the same time I texted the new owner who said he was going to SORN it. Roll on a month and I get a DVLA 'fine' for failing to notify them of the sale and a claim for back-dated VED.
This time I write a detailed letter explaining that I did all that was required of me by sending them the V5. I enclosed a copy of the receipt signed and dated by the new owner and myself back on the day of the sale last year. Had a moan at the new owner who now doesn't respond to texts or calls. Heard nothing more until today.
DVLA have now written saying that as I didn't follow up with them (when I should have received an acknowledgement of new ownership) the fine still stands and the outstanding VED is still due. This last bit was news to me and probably a few of you. It's written under section 2 of the V5 and I'd never noticed it or thought about it before, not least because I've never had any issues with transfer of ownership before. FWIW the car is showing as uninsured and untaxed at the moment.
Does anyone know the legal position here? I've never asked for proof of posting when sending off a V5. In addition, since when did it become my responsibility to follow up with the DVLA and check if the V5 section has been received? I'd like to know the legal basis for this. Interestingly, the DVLA say in their letter that you are 'advised' to contact them if you don't receive their letter of acknowledgement, not that you must, which makes me doubt they have a legal basis for claiming this.
Fight it or roll over?
I have always believed that my responsibility regarding transfer of ownership ended with sending off the V5 by post or completing the transfer online. I don't have a particular preference when buying or selling but traditionally I've always used the post. Never been an issue.
Late last year I sold a car and sent off the V5 by post. Around November I got a reminder that the car needed to be taxed so I scrawled 'no longer my car on the reminder, sold on XX/XX/2022' and returned it to the DVLA. At the same time I texted the new owner who said he was going to SORN it. Roll on a month and I get a DVLA 'fine' for failing to notify them of the sale and a claim for back-dated VED.
This time I write a detailed letter explaining that I did all that was required of me by sending them the V5. I enclosed a copy of the receipt signed and dated by the new owner and myself back on the day of the sale last year. Had a moan at the new owner who now doesn't respond to texts or calls. Heard nothing more until today.
DVLA have now written saying that as I didn't follow up with them (when I should have received an acknowledgement of new ownership) the fine still stands and the outstanding VED is still due. This last bit was news to me and probably a few of you. It's written under section 2 of the V5 and I'd never noticed it or thought about it before, not least because I've never had any issues with transfer of ownership before. FWIW the car is showing as uninsured and untaxed at the moment.
Does anyone know the legal position here? I've never asked for proof of posting when sending off a V5. In addition, since when did it become my responsibility to follow up with the DVLA and check if the V5 section has been received? I'd like to know the legal basis for this. Interestingly, the DVLA say in their letter that you are 'advised' to contact them if you don't receive their letter of acknowledgement, not that you must, which makes me doubt they have a legal basis for claiming this.
Fight it or roll over?
Pretty sure DVLA state it is your responsibility to ensure they are notified of a change of owner and that Royal Mail failing to deliver etc is not a mitigation. I got this from DVLA when a new keeper supplement I sent to them went missing then when I went to send the next car I sold via recorded the post office told me that DVLA don't sign for these so wouldn't be able to provide me with a record.
Basically you should assume that they don't have it until you receive their notification email.
OR
Use the online service which to be fair, works pretty good.
Basically you should assume that they don't have it until you receive their notification email.
OR
Use the online service which to be fair, works pretty good.
QuattroDave said:
Pretty sure DVLA state it is your responsibility to ensure they are notified of a change of owner and that Royal Mail failing to deliver etc is not a mitigation. I got this from DVLA when a new keeper supplement I sent to them went missing then when I went to send the next car I sold via recorded the post office told me that DVLA don't sign for these so wouldn't be able to provide me with a record.
Basically you should assume that they don't have it until you receive their notification email.
OR
Use the online service which to be fair, works pretty good.
DVLA say that, but it's not the law. DVLA often state things that have no legal backing...Basically you should assume that they don't have it until you receive their notification email.
OR
Use the online service which to be fair, works pretty good.
Happened to a coworker a few years ago - sent the v5 off first class, no proof of postage, and got the fine from DVLA a couple of months later, he contested it, they got as far as taking him to court, but dropped it on the day when the DVLA solicitor asked what his defence was and he said he had posted it - that's all you need to do. There have been a few threads on it...
I wouldn't be arguing the toss if I didn't feel DVLA are acting like money grabbing automatons.
I have a receipt signed and dated by me and the new owner on the day of the sale. I have the ebay record of the sale. It's bloody obvious the V5 got lost, is sitting in an empty room in Swansea or has been eaten by someone's dog while they were working from home.
I have a receipt signed and dated by me and the new owner on the day of the sale. I have the ebay record of the sale. It's bloody obvious the V5 got lost, is sitting in an empty room in Swansea or has been eaten by someone's dog while they were working from home.
OP has been lied to by the buyer. Was it a trader? If a private sale, the new owner is loving not being the registered keeper. How could he SORN it, since he didn't have a V5c for it? DVLA wouldn't chase for VED if you you weren't still the registered keeper. Just scrawling on the reminder and sending it back wasn't the best move. 
A receipt may show change of ownership, but registered keeper is a different thing. A new V5c will have to be applied for if it is truly 'lost.'
God knows why anybody still uses post; it became a major issue in 2020 when the vast majority of their staff were at home. V5c documents issued for the last several years don't even have a box for a signature when there's a change of keeper, the emphasis is doing it online.
A receipt may show change of ownership, but registered keeper is a different thing. A new V5c will have to be applied for if it is truly 'lost.'
God knows why anybody still uses post; it became a major issue in 2020 when the vast majority of their staff were at home. V5c documents issued for the last several years don't even have a box for a signature when there's a change of keeper, the emphasis is doing it online.
outnumbered said:
I've always found it odd that they send out NIPs in the normal post and these are "deemed" to be received within a day of posting unless you can actually prove otherwise.
Whereas you can post something to the DVLA and if they don't receive it, it's assumed you haven't posted it !
Geese and ganders come to mind.Whereas you can post something to the DVLA and if they don't receive it, it's assumed you haven't posted it !
As for doing it online - irrelevant. If other options exist they should work. I've used the online service. This time I didn't.
sixor8 said:
OP has been lied to by the buyer. Was it a trader? If a private sale, the new owner is loving not being the registered keeper. How could he SORN it, since he didn't have a V5c for it? DVLA wouldn't chase for VED if you you weren't still the registered keeper. Just scrawling on the reminder and sending it back wasn't the best move.
A receipt may show change of ownership, but registered keeper is a different thing. A new V5c will have to be applied for if it is truly 'lost.'
God knows why anybody still uses post; it became a major issue in 2020 when the vast majority of their staff were at home. V5c documents issued for the last several years don't even have a box for a signature when there's a change of keeper, the emphasis is doing it online.
Not a trader but no doubt a liar. The position is clear now. DVLA accept I'm not the owner or registered keeper. They just want their 'fine' and a few more quid for VED between the sale and accepting that the car no longer has anything to do with me.A receipt may show change of ownership, but registered keeper is a different thing. A new V5c will have to be applied for if it is truly 'lost.'
God knows why anybody still uses post; it became a major issue in 2020 when the vast majority of their staff were at home. V5c documents issued for the last several years don't even have a box for a signature when there's a change of keeper, the emphasis is doing it online.
It's interesting that sending a scrawled note wasn't the best move. Like many organisations, they make it incredibly difficult to contact them. They'll send you an email with a footnote that says don't reply to this email as replies are not monitored or you will have to try sitting in a queue pressing for multiple options for an indeterminate amount of time. Oh and they don't work late or at weekends. Nor does the website work 24/7.
Edited by Unreal on Wednesday 8th February 13:56
Edited by Unreal on Wednesday 8th February 14:01
Not helping with your query but after 50 years I had my first issue with DVLA last year.
Bought a three year old car from dealer January 2022.
Everything done by book V5 tax etc.
After a couple of months no V5.
Numerous attempts to contact DVLA without success.
Then out of blue started receiving letters from them .... asking for proof of my identity...address.... photos of car with reg plate / VIN plate etc etc.
Thought I'd bought a suspicious car but I'd checked its history no problem.
After about 8 months received a V5 as normal.
Attempted to obtain an explanation from DVLA but it's like waking the dead.
To this day I've not a clue what that was about.
Can't see it being standard practice.
Bought a three year old car from dealer January 2022.
Everything done by book V5 tax etc.
After a couple of months no V5.
Numerous attempts to contact DVLA without success.
Then out of blue started receiving letters from them .... asking for proof of my identity...address.... photos of car with reg plate / VIN plate etc etc.
Thought I'd bought a suspicious car but I'd checked its history no problem.
After about 8 months received a V5 as normal.
Attempted to obtain an explanation from DVLA but it's like waking the dead.
To this day I've not a clue what that was about.
Can't see it being standard practice.
ro250 said:
Doesn't change of ownership trigger a tax refund? Or was this vehicle already SORNd? That's how I knew the change of ownership went through the last time we sold a car as we got the tax rebate.
As well as VED refund, they also out a letter to advise you no longer responsible for the vehicle.Clause 7 is what most agencies rely upon when they send nasty stuff through the post.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30
cuprabob said:
ro250 said:
Doesn't change of ownership trigger a tax refund? Or was this vehicle already SORNd? That's how I knew the change of ownership went through the last time we sold a car as we got the tax rebate.
As well as VED refund, they also out a letter to advise you no longer responsible for the vehicle.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff