What's the speed limit?

[tommytaylor]

M56 roadworks coming through Cheshire towards Manchester. I like to think I know most road signs and never have a problem apart from the odd appallingly signed direction ones you come across once in a while but this has got me a bit stumped.

The M56 is being upgraded to a "smart motorway" and is nearly complete now, so much so that the overhead gantries are now live. so to set the scene, as you approach the roadworks in the 70 bit there is a flashing 50/amber lights overhead which I know is only advisory, then you go through a pair of terminal 50 signs on A frames to designate the start of the 50 section with 50 repeater A frames along the central reservation.

you then approach the first gantry and it has all 4 lanes as 50's in red circles with A frame 50 repeaters - all good so far. the next set of gantries however displayed 40 in all lanes still with 50 repeaters. After that the next set of gantries didn't show anything at all but still the 50 repeaters.

After that towards the end of the roadworks the advisory flashing amber overhead signs showed "END" well before the national speed limit signs.

So what is the speed limit in the 40 section, and surely after the 40 section you would need either overhead gantries showing 50 again or a pair of terminal signs again, especially as no display on the overheads usually means NSL after a lower limit.

for what its worth I did 50, then slowed to 40 then back to 50 and then NSL at the end. Doing 40 in the outside lane isn't exactly safe when everyone else around you including trucks are doing 50-60, cant really see what's very smart about that, there wasn't even any need for the 40 as everything was flowing freely.

[covboy]

I would say the speed limit is what the overhead gantry says. If No difference to a "normal" 70mph limit being overuled by the gantry signal

[GasEngineer]

I would say the speed limit is what the repeater signs say. They overule the gantry signal .

[Legmaster]

covboy said:

I would say the speed limit is what the overhead gantry says. If No difference to a "normal" 70mph limit being overuled by the gantry signal

GasEngineer said:

I would say the speed limit is what the repeater signs say. They overule the gantry signal .

There you go, there's your answer in the first two responses

[Doofus]

The 50 repeaters are in red circles. They are mandatory.

The gantries showing 40 are advisory. You won't get a ticket for exceeding those, although you could be prosecuted for driving without due care or, in the event of an incident, dangerous driving.

Guess who did a Speed Awareness course on Monday...

[ScoobyChris]

Doofus said:

The gantries showing 40 are advisory.

Unless they have red circles, in which case they become mandatory...

Chris

[covboy]

Doofus said:

The 50 repeaters are in red circles. They are mandatory.

The gantries showing 40 are advisory. You won't get a ticket for exceeding those, although you could be prosecuted for driving without due care or, in the event of an incident, dangerous driving.

Guess who did a Speed Awareness course on Monday...

If the first set (50) was mandatory surely the next set would also be mandatory. Never seen a mix of mandatory followed by advisory

Edited by covboy on Friday 17th February 13:53

[Doofus]

covboy said:

Doofus said:

The 50 repeaters are in red circles. They are mandatory.

The gantries showing 40 are advisory. You won't get a ticket for exceeding those, although you could be prosecuted for driving without due care or, in the event of an incident, dangerous driving.

Guess who did a Speed Awareness course on Monday...

If the first set (50) was mandatory surely the next set would also be mandatory. Never seen a mix of madatory followed by advisory

The A frame ones are semi-permanent. The gantries may be showing a temporary lower limit due to some issue ahead.

[tommytaylor]

Doofus said:

The 50 repeaters are in red circles. They are mandatory.

The gantries showing 40 are advisory. You won't get a ticket for exceeding those, although you could be prosecuted for driving without due care or, in the event of an incident, dangerous driving.

Guess who did a Speed Awareness course on Monday...

The 40's are in red circles as well. the first set of 50 signs I came to were before the smart motorway bit and were the old style orange 50 with a pair of flashing amber lights top and bottom, the type of sign that also displays the red X. The 40's were the new style smart motorway variable limit ones so they are the enforceable type. I also understood that after a limit change by the gantry then if the next gantry doesn't show any limit then its automatically NSL until told otherwise again. Surely a 50 repeater wouldn't be enough to change the limit back to 50 would it, doesn't it need a pair of signs like at the beginning of the roadworks, how would someone in the inside lane see a repeater in the central reservation if there was traffic to his right.


so to summarise, it could be 50 because of the roadworks, or 40 because of the signs or even 70 because of the lack of signs, that's clear then.

[Doofus]

tommytaylor said:

Doofus said:

The 50 repeaters are in red circles. They are mandatory.

The gantries showing 40 are advisory. You won't get a ticket for exceeding those, although you could be prosecuted for driving without due care or, in the event of an incident, dangerous driving.

Guess who did a Speed Awareness course on Monday...

The 40's are in red circles as well. the first set of 50 signs I came to were before the smart motorway bit and were the old style orange 50 with a pair of flashing amber lights top and bottom, the type of sign that also displays the red X. The 40's were the new style smart motorway variable limit ones so they are the enforceable type. I also understood that after a limit change by the gantry then if the next gantry doesn't show any limit then its automatically NSL until told otherwise again. Surely a 50 repeater wouldn't be enough to change the limit back to 50 would it, doesn't it need a pair of signs like at the beginning of the roadworks, how would someone in the inside lane see a repeater in the central reservation if there was traffic to his right.


so to summarise, it could be 50 because of the roadworks, or 40 because of the signs or even 70 because of the lack of signs, that's clear then.

If the 40s were in circles then, yes, they're mandatory and override the 50s. There should be an NSL indicator or another 50 sign to denote the 40 limit has ended. A 50 repeater shouldn't be enough to raise the limit; there ought to be gateway signs. However, given these are all temporary signs, you can't guarantee all the boxes have been ticked.

Err on the side of caution, and stick to the most recent mandatory limit you passed.

Or do what you want, and test your pedantry in court.

[theplayingmantis]

i thought technically the limit would be whatever red circled sign you last passed, be it gantry or a frame, and only change at the next red circled one (assuming its a different number to the previous)

unless im wrong!

i have seen this on the m25 or some such motorway after roadworks. gantries have a red circled limit that is lower than A frames that are assumedly left over and forgotten about (for a short while). it contradictory and confusing but smart motorways especially during and after roadworks are no smart in any sense.

edit to add i have also seen situation where no NSL limits on A frames or gantries to end the assumed lower limits. i stuck to those lower limits for a while as everyone else is burned past me, so then joined in after 5 mins or so as clearly had ended yet signs had not been put out or the old ones removed.

Edited by theplayingmantis on Friday 17th February 14:34

[chopper602]

tommytaylor said:

I also understood that after a limit change by the gantry then if the next gantry doesn't show any limit then its automatically NSL until told otherwise again.

Incorrect - the limit applies even through the next blank gantry until your reach an RE, or End or NSL signal.

[Mr Miata]

If there’s any doubt if it’s 40 mph or 50 mph. Just drive at the lower speed in the nearside lane. You can’t be prosecuted then.

Edited by Mr Miata on Friday 17th February 15:08

[Pica-Pica]

theplayingmantis said:

i thought technically the limit would be whatever red circled sign you last passed, be it gantry or a frame, and only change at the next red circled one (assuming its a different number to the previous)

Edited by theplayingmantis on Friday 17th February 14:34

But can a (small) red circled limit over-rule a larger sized re-circled limit sign that has a higher speed. Surely you can’t reduce a limit with just a repeater-sized sign?

[Red9zero]

Mr Miata said:

If there’s any doubt if it’s 40 mph or 50 mph. Just drive at the lower speed in the nearside lane. You can’t be prosecuted then.

Edited by Mr Miata on Friday 17th February 15:08

Exactly. The older I get, the more I take that view.

[E-bmw]

Basically, the limit last passed should be the one in force.

"Out of date" limits should have been obscured, but as others have said if in doubt use the lowest limit, can't be done for that.

[tommytaylor]

Mr Miata said:

If there’s any doubt if it’s 40 mph or 50 mph. Just drive at the lower speed in the nearside lane. You can’t be prosecuted then.

Edited by Mr Miata on Friday 17th February 15:08

The problem is my work is spread out a fair bit at the moment so I'm encountering a few average 50 zones, M56, M6 etc and I've realised that you can set the cruise to at least 56 and be safe through the cameras, this usually means being in the outside lane most of the time as you are overtaking nearly everything. So when you are in the outside lane and the middle lane is chocker and it suddenly drops to 40 you have cars up your arse and find you are in a bit of a predicament, I don't like holding other people up if I can help it.

A common occurrence for me is the M60 bit through the Eccles area towards the trafford centre, the variables always show 40 at rush hour which is stupid as there at that many cars on that bit it needs to flow at a reasonable speed to get rid of them, luckily there aren't any cameras on that bit so everyone is able to still do 60 or so and keep things moving.

[Monkeylegend]

There is only one way to find out.

[theplayingmantis]

Pica-Pica said:

But can a (small) red circled limit over-rule a larger sized re-circled limit sign that has a higher speed. Surely you can’t reduce a limit with just a repeater-sized sign?

no idea legally but my perhaps wrong assumption was if it has a red circle, repeater or not its the limit. As others do i err on the side of caution!

[BertBert]

You are all looking at it the wrong way. The speed limit is the one that can be enforced. With all that nonsense of big circles and small circles, a "permanent" temp limit on stands plus the gantries giving it in spades, with Nick Freeman in tow, I doubt even the NSL is enforceable. So fill yer boots.

And whatever has become of PH "drive as slowly as possible in the inside lane to keep safe" FFS.