Debt Collector's letter - is this dodgy?
Discussion
I am a member of a diving club, which owns a large clubhouse which has a monitored intruder alarm. I used to carry out the Building Manager's role, but handed it to somebody else when I had to take on another role in the club. Somebody replaced me, but had to step down. Since then, we have struggled to replace him, so the rest of the committee has had to muck in and cover the role.
The person who stood down is still a club member, but he has no formal role at the club, and we have had very little contact with him since COVID restrictions were lifted.
The alarm monitoring company are crap. They were a small independent firm, but they were bought out by a bigger outfit, who appear to have acquired many similar firms. We are in the process of trying to sort out a replacement alarm system, and we are stuck with them until we do.
Some of my bugbears include:
I emailed the monitoring company the following day, asking them to update the contact details, and informing them we had received the invoice and it had been passed to the treasurer.
Yesterday, the former building manager sent me another email; it appears to be from a debt recovery firm. I have changed the names to comply with PH name and shame rules, but the email has a letterhead with a two surname business name, that is typical of legal practices.
By the fact this demand has been sent to the person we told them to stop using as the account contact, it is safe to assume that if they did send the invoice, they sent it to the wrong person.
To deal with the above, we will simply tell them we will pay the amount on the statement of account, but they can stick any late payment fees up their arses (we'll put it slightly more politely than that), and remind them of our correspondence on the 1st December and their failure to update the contact details.
The bit I am interested in, however, is your opinions on the debt recovery email.
I Googled 'Hitler Stalin Legal Services' and there is no trace of them. There is, however, an Irish fire protection firm with the same two surnames in their name, that just so happen to be part of the same group of companies as Lockw
k.
The email has come from a Lockwk email address, but in the text of the email, they clearly claim to be a legal services firm acting on behalf of Lockwk.
I am wondering, is it actually legal to call yourself 'Legal Services' when you are clearly nothing of the sort?
Thanks!
The person who stood down is still a club member, but he has no formal role at the club, and we have had very little contact with him since COVID restrictions were lifted.
The alarm monitoring company are crap. They were a small independent firm, but they were bought out by a bigger outfit, who appear to have acquired many similar firms. We are in the process of trying to sort out a replacement alarm system, and we are stuck with them until we do.
Some of my bugbears include:
- Sending invoices with a cost, but nothing in the description column. We pay a fixed monitoring cost, and then so much for any keyholder responses. They do not break down their invoices, so we cannot check it is accurate (which it often is not).
- They send us reminders that the system has not been serviced (we do this in-house), and tell us we are 'in breach of police and fire brigade regulations'.
- They can be extremely difficult to get hold of if the alarm is triggered and we need a reset code.
I emailed the monitoring company the following day, asking them to update the contact details, and informing them we had received the invoice and it had been passed to the treasurer.
Yesterday, the former building manager sent me another email; it appears to be from a debt recovery firm. I have changed the names to comply with PH name and shame rules, but the email has a letterhead with a two surname business name, that is typical of legal practices.
email said:
HITLER STALIN LEGAL SERVICES
PRE-COURT DIVISION
FINAL NOTICE
(scales of justice watermark behind text)
17-03-2023
To whom it may concern,
Re: Lockwk Security Systems Ltd
We are writing to you with regards to the amount of 104.26 GBP, which is owed to the above named company and have been instructed by them, to instigate legal proceedings against you on their behalf.
This debt has been incurred in respect of goods and/or services rendered to you, as detailed on the enclosed invoice(s) and we are advised that the claimant is not aware of any reason why they should not be paid.
(table, containing statement of account)
To comply with Ministry Of Justice Protocol we are required to advise of the intention to recover in addition to the amount above.
Late Payment Interest at the rate of 8% as per the Late Payment of Commercial Debts Act 1998. The calculation date is to be as agreed by the parties or as determined by the Courts
Statutory compensation as per the Late Payment Of Commercial Debts Act 1998
Unless payment is received in full by Lockwk Security Systems Ltd within 7 days from the date of this letter, legal proceedings will be issued against you without any further warning.
Yours faithfully,
Sadie Pinochet,
Debt Litigation Manager
I called the treasurer to see if it had been paid. He told me he had queried it because the amount was almost twice the normal amount. It appears they raised a credit on the 12th December, but we have not received the corrected invoice.PRE-COURT DIVISION
FINAL NOTICE
(scales of justice watermark behind text)
17-03-2023
To whom it may concern,
Re: Lockw
k Security Systems LtdWe are writing to you with regards to the amount of 104.26 GBP, which is owed to the above named company and have been instructed by them, to instigate legal proceedings against you on their behalf.
This debt has been incurred in respect of goods and/or services rendered to you, as detailed on the enclosed invoice(s) and we are advised that the claimant is not aware of any reason why they should not be paid.
(table, containing statement of account)
To comply with Ministry Of Justice Protocol we are required to advise of the intention to recover in addition to the amount above.
Late Payment Interest at the rate of 8% as per the Late Payment of Commercial Debts Act 1998. The calculation date is to be as agreed by the parties or as determined by the Courts
Statutory compensation as per the Late Payment Of Commercial Debts Act 1998
Unless payment is received in full by Lockw
k Security Systems Ltd within 7 days from the date of this letter, legal proceedings will be issued against you without any further warning.Yours faithfully,
Sadie Pinochet,
Debt Litigation Manager
By the fact this demand has been sent to the person we told them to stop using as the account contact, it is safe to assume that if they did send the invoice, they sent it to the wrong person.
To deal with the above, we will simply tell them we will pay the amount on the statement of account, but they can stick any late payment fees up their arses (we'll put it slightly more politely than that), and remind them of our correspondence on the 1st December and their failure to update the contact details.
The bit I am interested in, however, is your opinions on the debt recovery email.
I Googled 'Hitler Stalin Legal Services' and there is no trace of them. There is, however, an Irish fire protection firm with the same two surnames in their name, that just so happen to be part of the same group of companies as Lockw
k.The email has come from a Lockw
k email address, but in the text of the email, they clearly claim to be a legal services firm acting on behalf of Lockwk.I am wondering, is it actually legal to call yourself 'Legal Services' when you are clearly nothing of the sort?
Thanks!
Tell them the amount is in dispute. Ask them for invoices for the amount outstanding and a statement of account. You don’t need much more than:
“This amount is in dispute. Please send copies of all relevant invoices and a statement of account, showing invoices and payments for the relevant period”
As for the interest, ignore it. Don’t even mention it. No one pays invoices for commercial interest. The only time I have ever actually chased it is where it’s been a large amount, the debtor has been a dick and it has been a very clear case of someone who could pay being intentionally difficult, and even then it’s been written off before going to court.
“This amount is in dispute. Please send copies of all relevant invoices and a statement of account, showing invoices and payments for the relevant period”
As for the interest, ignore it. Don’t even mention it. No one pays invoices for commercial interest. The only time I have ever actually chased it is where it’s been a large amount, the debtor has been a dick and it has been a very clear case of someone who could pay being intentionally difficult, and even then it’s been written off before going to court.
Either they have another company in the mix and they call it a legal services for the purposes of debt collection or they use 3rd run of mill parking charge bandits debt recovery.
Preaction Protocol, sounds like their accounts is a mess, used to work for a firm and if we got fed up chasing a debt we used a firm called Thomas Higgins and for a small fee they would send letters like this...
Have you contacted them to discuss the issue?
Are you just asking if they are allowed to have a person or dept called legal services?
Preaction Protocol, sounds like their accounts is a mess, used to work for a firm and if we got fed up chasing a debt we used a firm called Thomas Higgins and for a small fee they would send letters like this...
Have you contacted them to discuss the issue?
Are you just asking if they are allowed to have a person or dept called legal services?
Edited by surveyor_101 on Monday 20th March 11:48
My company (we are not debt collectors) is chasing a large debt right now and our solicitor advised us that 7 days notice would be thrown out by the court as unreasonable, so we are using 14 days.
Also, right now courts are taking months to deal with their backlog - we put another debt court in December and the court still hasn't made the judgement in default for us to proceed on.
As said above, write to them telling them that the invoices are already in dispute, and ask for a detailed breakdown of the charges levied.
Also, right now courts are taking months to deal with their backlog - we put another debt court in December and the court still hasn't made the judgement in default for us to proceed on.
As said above, write to them telling them that the invoices are already in dispute, and ask for a detailed breakdown of the charges levied.
surveyor_101 said:
Either they have another company in the mix and they call it a legal services for the purposes of debt collection or they use 3rd run of mill parking charge bandits debt recovery.
Preaction
Have you contacted them to discuss the issue?
Are you just asking if they are allowed to have a person or dept called legal services?
We have not contacted them to discuss, but will do shortly. I am not concerned about the debt, as it is clear they have failed to issue the invoice.Preaction
Have you contacted them to discuss the issue?
Are you just asking if they are allowed to have a person or dept called legal services?
My question is just about the legality of their underhand method of pretending to be a 'legal services' firm.
Ganglandboss said:
My question is just about the legality of their underhand method of pretending to be a 'legal services' firm.
Others may know better, but it is my understanding that it isn't at all uncommon for a company to have an "in house" debt collection agency and that they can pretty much call themselves what they want & regularly include such titles in the name to add weight to their communication.As advised above, just ignore the name/added weight as I don't think it has any real meaning.
Ganglandboss said:
My question is just about the legality of their underhand method of pretending to be a 'legal services' firm.
Judging from what else these various debt collection firms use on their letters to threaten people with nothing would surprise me.I had to deal with a relatives affairs including non payment of various bills after she had to go into a care home. In most cases the utility companies had instructed various collection agencies to get involved which seemed to consist of them knocking on her door and posting letters with in bold "failure to pay means you are going to prison " on.
Ganglandboss said:
We have not contacted them to discuss, but will do shortly. I am not concerned about the debt, as it is clear they have failed to issue the invoice.
My question is just about the legality of their underhand method of pretending to be a 'legal services' firm.
Is it a solicitors debt management firm or are you certain it comes back to the same offices and firm who claim the original debt?My question is just about the legality of their underhand method of pretending to be a 'legal services' firm.
Many a private parking firm have a debt division who send such letters, as far as I know its perfectly legal, its bullying to pay. They register a name (Bad Boys Debt Recovery Agents) and send letters.
From their point of view I expect the person you contacted failed to raise the invoice query and re-issue, someone in a badly run accounts team has done an aged debt report, your invoice is over 60 or 90 days etc,,,, they have said fine send a debt letter PAP etc that should get their attention.#
You can draft your own 7 day 14 day letter under the PAP the letter needs comply with the process set out by MOJ doesn't have to be served by a solicitors.
Many firms use letterheads of legal sounding persons and companies to pursue debt.
So I might run Viking Building Services and my clients might be tardy on paying their invoices.
I can then issue a Debt Collection Agency type letter from Powerfully Built Debt Enforcement - this is normally a "threatogram" with legalese. Private Parking Companies use this a lot and many people do fold and pay up for perceived fear of getting a CCJ or affecting their credit score.
My advice to the OP - get a new alarm monitoring company. 99% of alarm companies do not have monitoring services - they just use larger established companies.
So I might run Viking Building Services and my clients might be tardy on paying their invoices.
I can then issue a Debt Collection Agency type letter from Powerfully Built Debt Enforcement - this is normally a "threatogram" with legalese. Private Parking Companies use this a lot and many people do fold and pay up for perceived fear of getting a CCJ or affecting their credit score.
My advice to the OP - get a new alarm monitoring company. 99% of alarm companies do not have monitoring services - they just use larger established companies.
surveyor_101 said:
Is it a solicitors debt management firm or are you certain it comes back to the same offices and firm who claim the original debt?
It is definitely not a solicitor or debt management firm. It has come from the alarm company's email address. The name of the 'legal services' firm on the letterhead is the same as a firm that do fire extinguishers, dry risers etc, and they are shown on our alarm company's parent company's website as part of the same group (albeit without the words 'legal services' appended to the name).I was just wondering if it potentially falls under a protected title? There is a list here; 'solicitor' is one of the protected titles. 'Legal Services' is not listed, but it does state the list is not exhaustive.
The whole situation isn't a big deal to us; I would just like the opportunity to dob them in to the relevant authority if their actions fall foul of any laws or codes of practice.
Ganglandboss said:
surveyor_101 said:
Is it a solicitors debt management firm or are you certain it comes back to the same offices and firm who claim the original debt?
It is definitely not a solicitor or debt management firm. It has come from the alarm company's email address. The name of the 'legal services' firm on the letterhead is the same as a firm that do fire extinguishers, dry risers etc, and they are shown on our alarm company's parent company's website as part of the same group (albeit without the words 'legal services' appended to the name).I was just wondering if it potentially falls under a protected title? There is a list here; 'solicitor' is one of the protected titles. 'Legal Services' is not listed, but it does state the list is not exhaustive.
The whole situation isn't a big deal to us; I would just like the opportunity to dob them in to the relevant authority if their actions fall foul of any laws or codes of practice.
Ganglandboss said:
surveyor_101 said:
Either they have another company in the mix and they call it a legal services for the purposes of debt collection or they use 3rd run of mill parking charge bandits debt recovery.
Preaction
Have you contacted them to discuss the issue?
Are you just asking if they are allowed to have a person or dept called legal services?
We have not contacted them to discuss, but will do shortly. I am not concerned about the debt, as it is clear they have failed to issue the invoice.Preaction
Have you contacted them to discuss the issue?
Are you just asking if they are allowed to have a person or dept called legal services?
My question is just about the legality of their underhand method of pretending to be a 'legal services' firm.
You don't even need to have any legal qualifications to call yourself a Lawyer (in the UK). It just means someone who provides legal services.
Edited to add link...
https://www.sra.org.uk/consumers/choosing/legal-ja...
Edited by 98elise on Thursday 30th March 16:31
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff