Care Home fees/Assets
Discussion
My mum is in a Care Home due to Alzheimers and she is end stage but likely to live for some years yet, She has already lived with this disease for many years and way over the expected duration. Her mental capacity is gone but physically she is awesome.
My dad still lives in their martial home, owned outright. He has amended his Will so upon his death his half is shared between myself/siblings. He currently has money in the bank to pay for Care Home fees but that is running out.
How will it work for mum's half share of their home, does the council put a charge on her half and do they add interest? Can Dad be forced to sell to liquify her half?
They have lived in this home since the 1960's and I am keen to keep it within the family and my eldest to buy it from myself/siblings when my Dad passes but we are not sure what happens to Mum's half. I'm sure I read somewhere that only mum's money in the bank can be taken not her value of the house but I cannot believe that is correct although that would be good.
My dad still lives in their martial home, owned outright. He has amended his Will so upon his death his half is shared between myself/siblings. He currently has money in the bank to pay for Care Home fees but that is running out.
How will it work for mum's half share of their home, does the council put a charge on her half and do they add interest? Can Dad be forced to sell to liquify her half?
They have lived in this home since the 1960's and I am keen to keep it within the family and my eldest to buy it from myself/siblings when my Dad passes but we are not sure what happens to Mum's half. I'm sure I read somewhere that only mum's money in the bank can be taken not her value of the house but I cannot believe that is correct although that would be good.
Sorry to read about your Mum.
Afaik no one can force your Dad to sell whilst he still lives there - I think I’m right in saying if any relative over 60 lives there.
As such your Mums half of the house is “ protected “.
The council can assess any other savings she has in total if just over £23k and can also look at “ taking “ any pension payments to her I believe irrespective of the savings she may or may not have.
It might be worth speaking to a solicitor though.
I have no idea what happens when your Dad passes though as regards the Council then seeking repayment etc.
Afaik no one can force your Dad to sell whilst he still lives there - I think I’m right in saying if any relative over 60 lives there.
As such your Mums half of the house is “ protected “.
The council can assess any other savings she has in total if just over £23k and can also look at “ taking “ any pension payments to her I believe irrespective of the savings she may or may not have.
It might be worth speaking to a solicitor though.
I have no idea what happens when your Dad passes though as regards the Council then seeking repayment etc.
I think different Councils can have different approaches so it can't do any harm to ring yours up and ask (Finance dept). Try to avoid the Social Services department if you can because in my experience it's a slippery slope and the higher you go the less pleasant they get. AgeUK is a very good resource and will be on 'your side' if you need back-up.
Presume it's a council care home?
I think the usual plan is that the Council can/will take a charge on the house in lieu of payment. How long they will wait to get their money is another thing though.
Presume it's a council care home?
I think the usual plan is that the Council can/will take a charge on the house in lieu of payment. How long they will wait to get their money is another thing though.
OP, we have just been in this similar situation.
My uncle and auntie (they have no kids).
Auntie is in care home suffering with dementia (been in there nearly 3 years).
My uncle was left living in their home and he decided to change his will to leave his 'half' of things to myself and a niece ( personal monies were separated into their own single accounts when my aunt went into the home.)
He was told that he could change his will to not leave his money etc to his wife but to leave it to us so that the home didn't get their hands on that but the house could only go to the surviving joint owner (my aunt). Not sure if this was a legal thing to do with the fact that my aunt was in the home.
So my uncle has now passed away and I am sorting out his affairs as executor of the will but the house has to automatically pass to the surviving partner as it was in joint names.
Just to add that my aunt has until recently self funded ( to the tune of around £100k up until now that her funds have reached £23k), and now she will be funded by the council and money will be recovered upon the sale of the house. And they say care homes don't make money !!!!
My uncle and auntie (they have no kids).
Auntie is in care home suffering with dementia (been in there nearly 3 years).
My uncle was left living in their home and he decided to change his will to leave his 'half' of things to myself and a niece ( personal monies were separated into their own single accounts when my aunt went into the home.)
He was told that he could change his will to not leave his money etc to his wife but to leave it to us so that the home didn't get their hands on that but the house could only go to the surviving joint owner (my aunt). Not sure if this was a legal thing to do with the fact that my aunt was in the home.
So my uncle has now passed away and I am sorting out his affairs as executor of the will but the house has to automatically pass to the surviving partner as it was in joint names.
Just to add that my aunt has until recently self funded ( to the tune of around £100k up until now that her funds have reached £23k), and now she will be funded by the council and money will be recovered upon the sale of the house. And they say care homes don't make money !!!!
Edited by monty999 on Monday 27th March 18:27
Edited by monty999 on Monday 27th March 18:28
monty999 said:
OP, we have just been in this similar situation.
He was told that he could change his will to not leave his money etc to his wife but to leave it to us so that the home didn't get their hands on that but the house could only go to the surviving joint owner (my aunt). Not sure if this was a legal thing to do with the fact that my aunt was in the home.]
House should have been changed to tenants in common then each owner can leave share to anyone they choose. Good solicitor would have know and advised this so WHO told him he could not change his will? Sounds like advise from the local authority who would know exactly what situation was and advise him in a way to benefit the authorityHe was told that he could change his will to not leave his money etc to his wife but to leave it to us so that the home didn't get their hands on that but the house could only go to the surviving joint owner (my aunt). Not sure if this was a legal thing to do with the fact that my aunt was in the home.]
IANAL but did exactly the above with my parents house
Where the spouse llives in the marital home the 'value' of the house "can be" diregarded.
From AgeUK and simplifying Gov policy:
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/p...
[i] Do I have to sell my home to pay for care?
Your ability to pay for care will be worked out through a means test. Your home will not be included if you receive care and support at home or if you go into a care home on a short-term or temporary basis. If you move into a care home permanently, your home will not be included if, for example, your partner still lives there or, in certain circumstances, a relative. [/i]
Also note the lifetime cap on care costs is due in Oct 2023 so the most anyone will pay for their care will be set at £86,000. That'll pay for around 18 months. Perhaps no surprise that few live longer than that when going into care with underlying conditions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/operat...
Also dependning on the size of the estate 'tenants in common' may not be the most prudent move. This was something I looked at but on the marital home it didn't make sense as it would ultimately bring down the IHT threshold. The question has been asked in the IM thread.
From AgeUK and simplifying Gov policy:
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/p...
[i] Do I have to sell my home to pay for care?
Your ability to pay for care will be worked out through a means test. Your home will not be included if you receive care and support at home or if you go into a care home on a short-term or temporary basis. If you move into a care home permanently, your home will not be included if, for example, your partner still lives there or, in certain circumstances, a relative. [/i]
Also note the lifetime cap on care costs is due in Oct 2023 so the most anyone will pay for their care will be set at £86,000. That'll pay for around 18 months. Perhaps no surprise that few live longer than that when going into care with underlying conditions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/operat...
Also dependning on the size of the estate 'tenants in common' may not be the most prudent move. This was something I looked at but on the marital home it didn't make sense as it would ultimately bring down the IHT threshold. The question has been asked in the IM thread.
Armitage.Shanks said:
Also note the lifetime cap on care costs is due in Oct 2023 so the most anyone will pay for their care will be set at £86,000. That'll pay for around 18 months.
On that particular point my Mum is going into a self-funded care home this week. Cost is £1750 a week. So she'll reach the cut-off in 49 weeks and then the taxpayer picks up the bill?Nope.
Her residence fees are £1105 a week, her care fees are £645 a week. So it'll actually take 133 weeks to reach the cap, by which point she will have paid a total of £232,750.
QuartzDad said:
Armitage.Shanks said:
Also note the lifetime cap on care costs is due in Oct 2023 so the most anyone will pay for their care will be set at £86,000. That'll pay for around 18 months.
On that particular point my Mum is going into a self-funded care home this week. Cost is £1750 a week. So she'll reach the cut-off in 49 weeks and then the taxpayer picks up the bill?Nope.
Her residence fees are £1105 a week, her care fees are £645 a week. So it'll actually take 133 weeks to reach the cap, by which point she will have paid a total of £232,750.
'er indoors works nights in a care home, 12 hour shifts wiping arses for minimum wage.
monty999 said:
OP, we have just been in this similar situation.
My uncle and auntie (they have no kids).
Auntie is in care home suffering with dementia (been in there nearly 3 years).
My uncle was left living in their home and he decided to change his will to leave his 'half' of things to myself and a niece ( personal monies were separated into their own single accounts when my aunt went into the home.)
He was told that he could change his will to not leave his money etc to his wife but to leave it to us so that the home didn't get their hands on that but the house could only go to the surviving joint owner (my aunt). Not sure if this was a legal thing to do with the fact that my aunt was in the home.
So my uncle has now passed away and I am sorting out his affairs as executor of the will but the house has to automatically pass to the surviving partner as it was in joint names.
Just to add that my aunt has until recently self funded ( to the tune of around £100k up until now that her funds have reached £23k), and now she will be funded by the council and money will be recovered upon the sale of the house. And they say care homes don't make money !!!!
One thing to bear in mind when moving to council funding is the council will fund at a certain rate . So you may not get any choice in care home - and sent to the one the council choose for you. My uncle and auntie (they have no kids).
Auntie is in care home suffering with dementia (been in there nearly 3 years).
My uncle was left living in their home and he decided to change his will to leave his 'half' of things to myself and a niece ( personal monies were separated into their own single accounts when my aunt went into the home.)
He was told that he could change his will to not leave his money etc to his wife but to leave it to us so that the home didn't get their hands on that but the house could only go to the surviving joint owner (my aunt). Not sure if this was a legal thing to do with the fact that my aunt was in the home.
So my uncle has now passed away and I am sorting out his affairs as executor of the will but the house has to automatically pass to the surviving partner as it was in joint names.
Just to add that my aunt has until recently self funded ( to the tune of around £100k up until now that her funds have reached £23k), and now she will be funded by the council and money will be recovered upon the sale of the house. And they say care homes don't make money !!!!
Edited by monty999 on Monday 27th March 18:27
Edited by monty999 on Monday 27th March 18:28
Armitage.Shanks said:
Also dependning on the size of the estate 'tenants in common' may not be the most prudent move. This was something I looked at but on the marital home it didn't make sense as it would ultimately bring down the IHT threshold. The question has been asked in the IM thread.
Can you post a link to actual post(very long thread)It didn't make any difference in case of passing on marital home from my parents when owned as tenants in common.
On first death 50% of house passes to sibling(s) ( not full house value)
On second death balance of 50% again passes to sibling(s)
So in each case IHT applicable is at value so get 2 lots of IHT allowance on each death which is same result as if owned as joint tenants. OR am I missing something.
This is what happened with parents house - about 7 years ago. Cant remember exact figure but 50% house was below IHT level- if house in ownership of surviving parent it would be above IHT levels including value of rest of estate.
Council will still attempt to obtain payment for surviving parent if they are in a care home -but how much is half a house worth?
All done with advise from solicitor
Tagteam said:
One thing to bear in mind when moving to council funding is the council will fund at a certain rate . So you may not get any choice in care home - and sent to the one the council choose for you.
Which may, as someone from the council adult care team pointed out to me, be in Cornwall or Northumberland. Best value for the local council and all that.twokcc said:
House should have been changed to tenants in common then each owner can leave share to anyone they choose. Good solicitor would have know and advised this so WHO told him he could not change his will? Sounds like advise from the local authority who would know exactly what situation was and advise him in a way to benefit the authority
Sounds to me like deliberate "deprivation of assets" which the local authority can steam straight through.https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/docum...
OP
Assuming you are in England, the wife will be a self funder (will pay 100% of her care costs) if she has capital over £23,250. This will be capital in her sole name or 50% and joint arrangements with the spouse.
The marital home is disregarded from this calculation as long as her husband remains living there. If he wants to downsize/move at any stage, 50% of the sale proceeds goes to the wife and will be added to her capital (and she becomes a self funder). A local authority has discretionary powers on the latter point to continue to disregard the sale proceeds if it is considered punitive to the husband (e.g he cannot find a suitable replacement home with the value of his share of the proceeds).
Assuming you are in England, the wife will be a self funder (will pay 100% of her care costs) if she has capital over £23,250. This will be capital in her sole name or 50% and joint arrangements with the spouse.
The marital home is disregarded from this calculation as long as her husband remains living there. If he wants to downsize/move at any stage, 50% of the sale proceeds goes to the wife and will be added to her capital (and she becomes a self funder). A local authority has discretionary powers on the latter point to continue to disregard the sale proceeds if it is considered punitive to the husband (e.g he cannot find a suitable replacement home with the value of his share of the proceeds).
Tagteam said:
One thing to bear in mind when moving to council funding is the council will fund at a certain rate . So you may not get any choice in care home - and sent to the one the council choose for you.
Yes, we did choose the home which we knew the council would fund after funds ran down to the 23ktwokcc said:
House should have been changed to tenants in common then each owner can leave share to anyone they choose. Good solicitor would have know and advised this so WHO told him he could not change his will? Sounds like advise from the local authority who would know exactly what situation was and advise him in a way to benefit the authority
IANAL but did exactly the above with my parents house
He was able to change his will but couldn’t include the property as this was in joint names. I think it may have been due to my aunt would not being able to agree any change as she had dementia.IANAL but did exactly the above with my parents house
Panamax said:
Sounds to me like deliberate "deprivation of assets" which the local authority can steam straight through.
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/docum...
All done more than 10years before either needed care- council accepted it without questionhttps://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/docum...
QuartzDad said:
Tagteam said:
One thing to bear in mind when moving to council funding is the council will fund at a certain rate . So you may not get any choice in care home - and sent to the one the council choose for you.
Which may, as someone from the council adult care team pointed out to me, be in Cornwall or Northumberland. Best value for the local council and all that.Does anyone know how likely this is?
The situation we are in is that my Dad is in Birmingham. He was at home with my Mum as his dementia carer, then caught Covid at the start of April. My mum was struggling to cope with him - incontinence had started.
He had a week in hospital at the start of April. He was discharged to home on a Friday afternoon with ‘risk of falls’ on his discharge notes. Within 24hrs at home he fell, against my mum (age 80, but spritely), breaking her tibia. They have since been in hospital for 3 weeks, but mum is now home.
Dad has been in an ‘enhanced assessment’ bed since, and they have deemed him as requiring ‘24hr residential care with dementia needs’. They are (today) putting his case out to ‘brokerage’, something I was completely unaware of before yesterday. As it has been explained to me it’s a national bidding system where his case gets put up for grabs, the Council willing to pay £622 a week, then we have to wait to see what offers come in, which could be from anywhere, this could be within 72hrs and we have to make a decision almost immediately because the hospital ward he is on is closing down at the end of next week. I feel that we are being bullied into a rushed decision and need to understand dad’s rights here.
He’s 83, him and my mum have been married 60yrs. They’ve lived in Birmingham their entire lives. We just want him in a care facility in the Birmingham area. Surely they are not going to deprive my mum of what little time she has left with him by moving him to the other end of the country?
For clarity he has some savings which could pay top uo fees for a few months but not forever. It seems to me to be unspeakably cruel that we should geographically outsource our old folk like this, when they have a surviving partner.
I’m calling Age UK for advice later, but anyone who has been in this position I would appreciate advice.
Edited by PurpleTurtle on Tuesday 25th April 07:51
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