Unusual alignment issues
Discussion
Evening
I recently (10 days?) got my car lowered, spaced and switched bump stops for a shorter item. Shocks are still good, and have some life in them yet, but they are the originals so those will be replaced when necessary, probably for Bilstein B4’s.
I also switched my tyres today for 4 new Continentals and took on an offer of 4 wheel alignment thinking that they would solve some issues I was having with the car.
Before suspension and tyres, the car felt vague, unbalanced and squirrelly.
Suspension fixed the balance and made it feel more planted.
Tyres fixed the terrible ride quality, tramlining and grip.
But the tracking has not fixed the fidgetyness.
This is the result of the alignment. WTF is up with the camber? I should have known not to take up this terrible alignment by a “national”….. tyre chain, but clearly this is something more unusual.
Rear camber has not been touched (“policy”) but not sure why so extreme, even if lowering does dial in more negative camber.
Front camber is not adjustable, so no idea what could be causing this. This is what I am more worried about.
Car is a F30 BMW on 76500 miles.
Before I get it realigned properly, I want ideas on what the fault could be. Have already spent quite a lot of money on honing this car so disappointed it is still not perfect.
Purchased this car in August, has been getting worse. The state of the roads here are absolutely pathetic. On my daily route I regularly have to manoeuvre around potholes the size of Jupiter and some bits of road look worse than a warzone. Which I reckon could be the cause of the problem.
Any ideas ?
I recently (10 days?) got my car lowered, spaced and switched bump stops for a shorter item. Shocks are still good, and have some life in them yet, but they are the originals so those will be replaced when necessary, probably for Bilstein B4’s.
I also switched my tyres today for 4 new Continentals and took on an offer of 4 wheel alignment thinking that they would solve some issues I was having with the car.
Before suspension and tyres, the car felt vague, unbalanced and squirrelly.
Suspension fixed the balance and made it feel more planted.
Tyres fixed the terrible ride quality, tramlining and grip.
But the tracking has not fixed the fidgetyness.
This is the result of the alignment. WTF is up with the camber? I should have known not to take up this terrible alignment by a “national”….. tyre chain, but clearly this is something more unusual.
Rear camber has not been touched (“policy”) but not sure why so extreme, even if lowering does dial in more negative camber.
Front camber is not adjustable, so no idea what could be causing this. This is what I am more worried about.
Car is a F30 BMW on 76500 miles.
Before I get it realigned properly, I want ideas on what the fault could be. Have already spent quite a lot of money on honing this car so disappointed it is still not perfect.
Purchased this car in August, has been getting worse. The state of the roads here are absolutely pathetic. On my daily route I regularly have to manoeuvre around potholes the size of Jupiter and some bits of road look worse than a warzone. Which I reckon could be the cause of the problem.
Any ideas ?
Edited by V 02 on Wednesday 29th March 20:38
I can't make sense of those camber figures. The graphic shows they've hit the positive end of the range but the number shows -ve.
V 02 said:
lowered, spaced
Shocks ... are the originals
I have no idea what handling problems you're experiencing but these are all things which I'd expect to screw up the handling. Shocks ... are the originals
GreenV8S said:
I have no idea what handling problems you're experiencing but these are all things which I'd expect to screw up the handling.
I only went with Eibach, 15mm lower than stock which are designed to work with OE dampers. F80 bump stops, Eibach spacers. So nothing too crazy there. Shock absorbers aren’t yet shot, no leaks and still have life. It was a lot worse before I fitted those. The springs and new tyres have fixed about 80% of the issues.. the last 20% is the alignment.V 02 said:
Rear camber has not been touched (“policy”) but not sure why so extreme, even if lowering does dial in more negative camber.
But your rear camber is more positive than the tolerance.V 02 said:
Front camber is not adjustable, so no idea what could be causing this. This is what I am more worried about.
Basically, anything "out of whack" on the leg could cause this, it all needs checking out & while it may be "non-adjustable" there may be some small amount of scope for loosening & retightening things under tension to make a slight adjustment.I'm just going to throw it out there that your "National" chain of tyre fitters have probably just done a crap job of measuring and then adjusting the alignment on your car. Take it somewhere decent and get them to assess it.
The rear toe is unequal side to side, the caster looks totally wrong (assuming that they have actually measured this), and the mismatched camber on the front is probably just because they have measured it wrong (possibly with the wheels turned - I don't know what the setup is on a BMW but most cars gain camber as the wheel turns as a result of the caster angle)
Take it somewhere decent and get them to assess it. A few years ago, I was told that my Porsche had a 1 degree difference in max camber side to side (which didn't make any sense), I took it to Centre Gravity and they found no issues once measured correctly - the difference in handling post CG was transformative.
The rear toe is unequal side to side, the caster looks totally wrong (assuming that they have actually measured this), and the mismatched camber on the front is probably just because they have measured it wrong (possibly with the wheels turned - I don't know what the setup is on a BMW but most cars gain camber as the wheel turns as a result of the caster angle)
Take it somewhere decent and get them to assess it. A few years ago, I was told that my Porsche had a 1 degree difference in max camber side to side (which didn't make any sense), I took it to Centre Gravity and they found no issues once measured correctly - the difference in handling post CG was transformative.
Alright, finally got my alignment set from WIM/Blackboots
As predicted by some of you the car was measured incorrectly by “interNATIONAL” and set up all wrong
Actual front camber was fine and required no adjustment
Rear camber was adjusted
Caster is now 0.00
Toe was -0.30 on the left wheel!!!!
All toes were out badly.
Now everything is green and the car feels transformed. Tracks exactly straight and predictable steering which means you can drive at higher speeds with far more confidence
Happy man!
As predicted by some of you the car was measured incorrectly by “interNATIONAL” and set up all wrong
Actual front camber was fine and required no adjustment
Rear camber was adjusted
Caster is now 0.00
Toe was -0.30 on the left wheel!!!!
All toes were out badly.
Now everything is green and the car feels transformed. Tracks exactly straight and predictable steering which means you can drive at higher speeds with far more confidence
Happy man!
Just having an expensive fancy looking machine does not mean the operator can be unskilled.
A local independent tyre specialist had such a machine and I asked if they could check a classic car on it which they said they couldn't as it wasn't in the data base. I told them I had all the factory specs but they couldn't do it. At the end of the day its just a measuring device with some software and highlights measurements that are in or out of spec with red/green warnings.
Having no confidence in their abilities I spent a considerable amount of money on some equipment just to do a couple of cars a year.
A local independent tyre specialist had such a machine and I asked if they could check a classic car on it which they said they couldn't as it wasn't in the data base. I told them I had all the factory specs but they couldn't do it. At the end of the day its just a measuring device with some software and highlights measurements that are in or out of spec with red/green warnings.
Having no confidence in their abilities I spent a considerable amount of money on some equipment just to do a couple of cars a year.
V 02 said:
Alright, finally got my alignment set from WIM/Blackboots
As predicted by some of you the car was measured incorrectly by “interNATIONAL” and set up all wrong
Actual front camber was fine and required no adjustment
Rear camber was adjusted
Caster is now 0.00
Toe was -0.30 on the left wheel!!!!
All toes were out badly.
Now everything is green and the car feels transformed. Tracks exactly straight and predictable steering which means you can drive at higher speeds with far more confidence
Happy man!
Great result. Just as an FYI though, caster angle is unlikely to be 0 degrees (that would be perfectly vertical and would be quite rare on a modern, power assisted car). As predicted by some of you the car was measured incorrectly by “interNATIONAL” and set up all wrong
Actual front camber was fine and required no adjustment
Rear camber was adjusted
Caster is now 0.00
Toe was -0.30 on the left wheel!!!!
All toes were out badly.
Now everything is green and the car feels transformed. Tracks exactly straight and predictable steering which means you can drive at higher speeds with far more confidence
Happy man!
Jaz2000 said:
Just having an expensive fancy looking machine does not mean the operator can be unskilled.
A local independent tyre specialist had such a machine and I asked if they could check a classic car on it which they said they couldn't as it wasn't in the data base. I told them I had all the factory specs but they couldn't do it. At the end of the day its just a measuring device with some software and highlights measurements that are in or out of spec with red/green warnings.
Having no confidence in their abilities I spent a considerable amount of money on some equipment just to do a couple of cars a year.
It's a classic case of "Computer says no". A local independent tyre specialist had such a machine and I asked if they could check a classic car on it which they said they couldn't as it wasn't in the data base. I told them I had all the factory specs but they couldn't do it. At the end of the day its just a measuring device with some software and highlights measurements that are in or out of spec with red/green warnings.
Having no confidence in their abilities I spent a considerable amount of money on some equipment just to do a couple of cars a year.
Those systems are designed to 'user friendly'... and most operators really don't understand what they are doing beyond winding an adjuster so that the screen turns green. Ask them to set to your data and they're flummoxed, because they don't work to (nor comprehend) data. Thankfully there are a few specialist places that have a good rep and get recommendations on here.
I have to admit several years ago at the end of my last TD build I took it to my local alignment centre & it took me several minutes to get him to understand what I meant when I gave him the specs that I wanted.
When I said I wanted -1.5 degree camber he kept arguing that I meant (the correct spec) - an additional 1.5 degrees etc.
In the end I managed to make him understand & working with him we put the correct specs in for the car, just to show what it was on the screen & then completely ignored them & set what I wanted & did a print out for reference.
All worked out well in the end, although it could have been very different as most garages won't even let you be in there when the are working under a car.
When I said I wanted -1.5 degree camber he kept arguing that I meant (the correct spec) - an additional 1.5 degrees etc.
In the end I managed to make him understand & working with him we put the correct specs in for the car, just to show what it was on the screen & then completely ignored them & set what I wanted & did a print out for reference.
All worked out well in the end, although it could have been very different as most garages won't even let you be in there when the are working under a car.
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