Car theft not covered when selling

[aceofspades1]

Just a passing thought

I just read my car insurance policy and they said: "We won’t cover loss or damage to your car if someone takes it by fraud or deception while pretending to be a buyer."

If someone came to view my car, wrestled the keys off me and took off would I be left empty-handed?

I'm selling quite a high-value car privately so just a bit concerned and would appreciate any advice!

[ChocolateFrog]

I'd just make sure I wasn't selling it to the thief that stole it.

[anonymous-user]

aceofspades1 said:

Just a passing thought

I just read my car insurance policy and they said: "We won’t cover loss or damage to your car if someone takes it by fraud or deception while pretending to be a buyer."

If someone came to view my car, wrestled the keys off me and took off would I be left empty-handed?

I'm selling quite a high-value car privately so just a bit concerned and would appreciate any advice!

I think you would be covered as you've just been robbed.

[ChocolateFrog]

pocketspring said:

aceofspades1 said:

Just a passing thought

I just read my car insurance policy and they said: "We won’t cover loss or damage to your car if someone takes it by fraud or deception while pretending to be a buyer."

If someone came to view my car, wrestled the keys off me and took off would I be left empty-handed?

I'm selling quite a high-value car privately so just a bit concerned and would appreciate any advice!

I think you would be covered as you've just been robbed.

No he wouldn't, that's the whole point.

[mph999]

Wrestling the keys off you isn’t fraud or deception - You were carjacked …

[JulianHJ]

ChocolateFrog said:

No he wouldn't, that's the whole point.

Robbery and 'fraud or deception' are not the same thing.

[sixor8]

By using the terms 'fraud and deception,' I presume its that if you are paid using counterfeit money or accept a wire transfer that bounces or from a fake bank account etc, that you can't claim on your insurance. Otherwise there would be quite a few trying it on and claiming on there car insurance as well as shipping their car off to an 'associate.'

[silentbrown]

JulianHJ said:

Robbery and 'fraud or deception' are not the same thing.

Just found mine has a similar clause.

If they're posing as a buyer there's certainly deception involved, even if they then whack you on the head and nick the keys.

[DanL]

silentbrown said:

JulianHJ said:

Robbery and 'fraud or deception' are not the same thing.

Just found mine has a similar clause.

If they're posing as a buyer there's certainly deception involved, even if they then whack you on the head and nick the keys.

You’re covered for theft. This is clearly a clause to prevent payout in the case of fake cash or some other scam.

[paintman]

aceofspades1 said:

Just a passing thought

I just read my car insurance policy and they said: "We won’t cover loss or damage to your car if someone takes it by fraud or deception while pretending to be a buyer."

If someone came to view my car, wrestled the keys off me and took off would I be left empty-handed?

I'm selling quite a high-value car privately so just a bit concerned and would appreciate any advice!

I'd suggest on those circumstances robbery but only if all the elements of theft are present & can be proved.
"A person is guilty of robbery if the person steals, and immediately before or at the time of doing so, and in order to do so, they use force on any person or puts or seeks to put any person in fear of being then and there subjected to force."

But could be TWOC & assault if theft can't be proved.

Worth a read:
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/theft-act-of...
Scroll down to robbery and R v Mitchell.

Edited by paintman on Saturday 8th April 22:48

[youngsyr]

DanL said:

silentbrown said:

JulianHJ said:

Robbery and 'fraud or deception' are not the same thing.

Just found mine has a similar clause.

If they're posing as a buyer there's certainly deception involved, even if they then whack you on the head and nick the keys.

You’re covered for theft. This is clearly a clause to prevent payout in the case of fake cash or some other scam.

It's a grey area, probably deliberately so by the choice of wording by the insurer.

A friend had his Civic Type R stolen whilst selling it. He gave the keys to the "buyer" to unlock it and inspect the interior. The "buyer" then promptly got in and drove off, never to be seen again.

Accomplice then drove off in the car they arrived in.

Insurance refused to pay out.

[leef44]

youngsyr said:

It's a grey area, probably deliberately so by the choice of wording by the insurer.

A friend had his Civic Type R stolen whilst selling it. He gave the keys to the "buyer" to unlock it and inspect the interior. The "buyer" then promptly got in and drove off, never to be seen again.

Accomplice then drove off in the car they arrived in.

Insurance refused to pay out.

Interesting point and does seem a very grey area. I can see where the insurance company is coming from i.e. you take a risk and hand your key over to someone, but this does add another complication to selling a car privately.

[DanL]

youngsyr said:

DanL said:

silentbrown said:

JulianHJ said:

Robbery and 'fraud or deception' are not the same thing.

Just found mine has a similar clause.

If they're posing as a buyer there's certainly deception involved, even if they then whack you on the head and nick the keys.

You’re covered for theft. This is clearly a clause to prevent payout in the case of fake cash or some other scam.

It's a grey area, probably deliberately so by the choice of wording by the insurer.

A friend had his Civic Type R stolen whilst selling it. He gave the keys to the "buyer" to unlock it and inspect the interior. The "buyer" then promptly got in and drove off, never to be seen again.

Accomplice then drove off in the car they arrived in.

Insurance refused to pay out.

… some other scam.

You’re not covered if you give someone the keys and they steal your car, whether you’re selling or not though…

[gotoPzero]

Air tag in the boot.
Dont give them the keys in the first 5 min.
Block it in if you can.
Get mrs to take a few photos of the car they arrive in.

Look for warning signs like turning up on foot "parked round the corner mate".

Anyone wearing "the uniform".

The usual stuff its not difficult.

[P. ONeill]

gotoPzero said:

Air tag in the boot.
Anyone wearing "the uniform".

The uniform?

[ingenieur]

I think the distinction as alluded to above is whether or not the pattern of a standard sale is followed. i.e. if they come, you do a deal and have supposedly been paid somehow incorrectly or if they promise to pay and then they don't. At the same time the vehicle is no longer in your custody so you've been effectively deprived of your property that would be the purpose of this clause.

The notion that your car insurance would not cover theft in itself is absurd.

In the case of the Honda Civic the bloke probably should have got some legal advice and pushed for a payout as that does not seem cricket to me.

[98elise]

mph999 said:

Wrestling the keys off you isn’t fraud or deception - You were carjacked …

Agreed. The difference is you willingly handed the keys over.

In addition you might find the police have zero interest either. I lost a car to a fraud many many years ago and they couldn't be less interested if they tried.

In my case they gave me a cheque and I gave them the car when the money appeared in my account. The money then got deducted a day or so later as the cheque bounced. I didn't know that could happen.

The police just said it's a civil matter not a crime.

[ingenieur]

98elise said:

The police just said it's a civil matter not a crime.

Clearly was a crime. But if the police don't want to help it's difficult to make them help.

[DodgyGeezer]

98elise said:

Agreed. The difference is you willingly handed the keys over.

In addition you might find the police have zero interest either. I lost a car to a fraud many many years ago and they couldn't be less interested if they tried.

In my case they gave me a cheque and I gave them the car when the money appeared in my account. The money then got deducted a day or so later as the cheque bounced. I didn't know that could happen.

The police just said it's a civil matter not a crime.

strikes me that these days there are only 2 ways to sell privately:

- cash paid into, and checked by, the bank
- electronic transfer

failing that your only choice is to get rooked by WBAC or their ilk (though in fairness my last experience with those wasn't that bad)

[gotoPzero]

P. ONeill said:

gotoPzero said:

Air tag in the boot.
Anyone wearing "the uniform".

The uniform?

Are you really asking? Because if you dont know what your average chav wears then I suspect you have lived a very sheltered life.