Small claims court

[layercake]

Hi folks
Recently sold a house and they are disputing a couple of things. Main one being the boiler, which wa tested myself and I had a friend there when I checked, all of a sudden buyers move in and within a few days boiler is broke requires new pcb my solicitor tells me. I have a quote for around £150 for repair and their quotes £2500 and £900 first one being for a brand new boiler! Naturally I tell them no chance and was prepared to pay my boiler guy for the repair but thought even then the repair wouldn't be to their satisfaction. My solicitor stopped sending me any communications after a few emails back and forth, long story short they have filed for a small claims in Scotland. I wanted to find out how best to defend this, missives did state any appliances should be working they wanted a few other things which I complied with. But I can help but feel I am being fleeced for a new boiler. According to their engineer boiler is too old, when infact it was covered by BG few months before they moved in,

If anyone has been on the receiving end of a small claim drop me a line or DM

Thanks

[spikeyhead]

Which country are you in?

[OutInTheShed]

layercake said:

Hi folks
Recently sold a house and they are disputing a couple of things. Main one being the boiler, which wa tested myself and I had a friend there when I checked, all of a sudden buyers move in and within a few days boiler is broke requires new pcb my solicitor tells me. I have a quote for around £150 for repair and their quotes £2500 and £900 first one being for a brand new boiler! Naturally I tell them no chance and was prepared to pay my boiler guy for the repair but thought even then the repair wouldn't be to their satisfaction. My solicitor stopped sending me any communications after a few emails back and forth, long story short they have filed for a small claims in Scotland. I wanted to find out how best to defend this, missives did state any appliances should be working they wanted a few other things which I complied with. But I can help but feel I am being fleeced for a new boiler. According to their engineer boiler is too old, when infact it was covered by BG few months before they moved in,

If anyone has been on the receiving end of a small claim drop me a line or DM

Thanks

You're making it sound a bit like you 'have a boiler guy'. Either you maintain many houses or you've been keeping a terminally ill boiler on life support being the implication.
You may have made an error in asserting the condition of the boiler.
Personally I think people buying houses with boilers more than say 7 years old should be assuming the boiler is 'time served' and they should budget to get a new one with a ten year warranty over 10 years.

That's not the law, that's the impression you're giving me, which may affect the way people perceive the situation.

The legal situation will depend on the contract, what info you gave the buyer and all that.

The smart thing to do might be to consider pointing out that if they get a brand new boiler with a ten year warranty, they are materially better off, and offer to make a contribution.

Will your 'boiler man' fix the boiler and offer a warranty?
Can they get on a BG service plan now?
Just how old is the boiler and what is its history?

Did they have a survey? was there a gas safety check during the sale process?

I am always suspicious of boilers 'needing a PCB' it smacks of 'boiler man doesn't know the true problem'.

[Mr.Chips]

FWIW, local estate agents always put a disclaimer in their ads saying something like, “any appliances have not been checked and prospective buyers are advised to carry out their own checks/inspections before making an offer.”
If the new owners of your old house didn’t do this before making an offer OP, I think I would either make a goodwill offer, accepting no liability or, if this isn’t good enough, tell them to jog on.

[bennno]

layercake said:

Hi folks
Recently sold a house and they are disputing a couple of things. Main one being the boiler, which wa tested myself and I had a friend there when I checked, all of a sudden buyers move in and within a few days boiler is broke requires new pcb my solicitor tells me. I have a quote for around £150 for repair and their quotes £2500 and £900 first one being for a brand new boiler! Naturally I tell them no chance and was prepared to pay my boiler guy for the repair but thought even then the repair wouldn't be to their satisfaction. My solicitor stopped sending me any communications after a few emails back and forth, long story short they have filed for a small claims in Scotland. I wanted to find out how best to defend this, missives did state any appliances should be working they wanted a few other things which I complied with. But I can help but feel I am being fleeced for a new boiler. According to their engineer boiler is too old, when infact it was covered by BG few months before they moved in,

If anyone has been on the receiving end of a small claim drop me a line or DM

Thanks

Do you have a record of it being serviced annually?

[hidetheelephants]

Mr.Chips said:

FWIW, local estate agents always put a disclaimer in their ads saying something like, “any appliances have not been checked and prospective buyers are advised to carry out their own checks/inspections before making an offer.”
If the new owners of your old house didn’t do this before making an offer OP, I think I would either make a goodwill offer, accepting no liability or, if this isn’t good enough, tell them to jog on.

When looking at vacant houses/flats they've always had "do not use" or similar on the boiler(and in some cases electric showers etc), even where the boiler was obviously only a few years old and well inside the makers warranty. It's just to avoid vexatious claims like this

[QBee]

I cannot improve on the above, but this is a timely warning for me, as I have a gas boiler that is well over 10 years old and will be selling my house soon.
So I need to make sure that we declare it for what it is - an old boiler that is fine so long as the manufacturer services and maintains it.

I had a major failure of it about 3 years ago, but completely solved the issue for £312.

I contacted the manufacturer Baxi, and asked them what it would cost to have one of their experienced engineers fix it. The answer was very interesting.

For £311 they would come out and fix it if it was financially viable, but no guarantees and no refunds if not viable.
For £312 they would set up an annual service contract with D(esperate) and G(agging), and under that contract they would come out and fix it with as many parts and as much time as it needed.
Naturally I took the service contract.

When the Baxi factory engineer came he replaced the entire combustion chamber and several other major parts, and serviced the boiler as well.
He estimated it was about £1,000 worth of labour and parts.

Naturally I have kept the service contract in place. In my experience with two boilers (I also have a Vaillant one in another house) the only people who reliably can solve issues with these things are the manufacturers. I had an issue with the Vaillant one only last week, and the Vaillant guy had to swap out quite a few parts to fix it.

[rgf100]

Worth bearing in mind that we appear to be in Scotland, and we have a different system up here - See 4.1, etc, under Section 3
https://www.lawscot.org.uk/media/1209/client-guide...

26.1, however, restricts claims to only those OVER £300 in value.

If the boiler's running, or can be got running by your guy with a £150 repair, I'd be arguing that's as good as they can expect when buying what is, I assume, an old boiler. If it's a brand new one with defects you've not disclosed, they've maybe got more of a case.

[irc]

Small claim (Simple Procedure) process is here.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/taking-action/simple...

You are not liable for other parties costs in event you lose.

Claim hearing will be held at your local court not theirs

Will your boiler guy give you a statement?

I'm guessing here but I suspect even if you lose any award will take into account the age of the boiler. If a new boiler is £2.5k and the current one is 15 years old the other party will get nowhere near that.

He will presumably need to submit evidence as to why the problem is and what the repair cost will be.

Has there been a claim issued and confirmed by court docs or is it all talk

Bottom line - as costs are not awarded you are unlikely to be any worse off if it goes to court.

[OutInTheShed]

QBee said:

I cannot improve on the above, but this is a timely warning for me, as I have a gas boiler that is well over 10 years old and will be selling my house soon.
So I need to make sure that we declare it for what it is - an old boiler that is fine so long as the manufacturer services and maintains it.

I had a major failure of it about 3 years ago, but completely solved the issue for £312.

I contacted the manufacturer Baxi, and asked them what it would cost to have one of their experienced engineers fix it. The answer was very interesting.

For £311 they would come out and fix it if it was financially viable, but no guarantees and no refunds if not viable.
For £312 they would set up an annual service contract with D(esperate) and G(agging), and under that contract they would come out and fix it with as many parts and as much time as it needed.
Naturally I took the service contract.

When the Baxi factory engineer came he replaced the entire combustion chamber and several other major parts, and serviced the boiler as well.
He estimated it was about £1,000 worth of labour and parts.

Naturally I have kept the service contract in place. In my experience with two boilers (I also have a Vaillant one in another house) the only people who reliably can solve issues with these things are the manufacturers. I had an issue with the Vaillant one only last week, and the Vaillant guy had to swap out quite a few parts to fix it.

'Factory' repair men have a van load of parts which don't cost them much. They will swap stuff out rather than do even a basic test on the existing part.

If they are bunging in anywhere near a grand's worth of parts, it would probably make more sense for them to swap the whole boiler, but they probably don't want to do that. Maybe because i would reset the warranty?

[PaulD86]

If this is in Scotland, when you sold I assume your solicitor used the Standard Scottish Clauses, in which case section 4 would apply, assuming it weren't deleted. Section 26 may also apply. Have they acted as per these terms?

[QBee]

OutInTheShed said:

'Factory' repair men have a van load of parts which don't cost them much. They will swap stuff out rather than do even a basic test on the existing part.

If they are bunging in anywhere near a grand's worth of parts, it would probably make more sense for them to swap the whole boiler, but they probably don't want to do that. Maybe because i would reset the warranty?

The point about parts pricing is accurate - for an independent boiler guy to buy the parts would cost a great deal more than they cost to manufacture.
The combustion chamber was clearly warped and leaking combustion gases where the front cover didn't fit, and a new cover didn't solve the leak.
He wasn't able to change the whole boiler as it is about 15 years old - they offer some sort of reduced price deal if you need a full replacement.
Whilst I was thinking about the potential cost of a replacement, he said he would change all the parts that needed to be replaced under the terms of the annual scheme.

I was giving this level of detail to make the point that whatever the problem, it could probably be fixed by the manufacturer for less than £400, and the new owner would then have a choice - continue the plan on the old boiler, or fit a new one and take out a maintenance plan on that one. The benefits for the new owners of having a new boilers is that they are supposed to be more fuel efficient now.

It certainly shouldn't cost £900.
Or even a new boiler

[21st Century Man]

Mindblowing!

Some people actually expect a used appliance in a used home to have some sort of warranty?

Do secondhand homes even have any legal type of warranty? Outside of the survey findings? (Unlike a new home with the builders, NHBC guarantee).

If I moved into a new (used) home and the boiler packed up after a short while, I'd be miffed, but would shrug and crack on, not chase the seller.

[irc]

21st Century Man said:

Mindblowing!

Some people actually expect a used appliance in a used home to have some sort of warranty?

Do secondhand homes even have any legal type of warranty? Outside of the survey findings? (Unlike a new home with the builders, NHBC guarantee).

If I moved into a new (used) home and the boiler packed up after a short while, I'd be miffed, but would shrug and crack on, not chase the seller.

Exactly! If you buy a house with a 15 year old boiler then near term replacement is priced in.

[Driver101]

irc said:

21st Century Man said:

Mindblowing!

Some people actually expect a used appliance in a used home to have some sort of warranty?

Do secondhand homes even have any legal type of warranty? Outside of the survey findings? (Unlike a new home with the builders, NHBC guarantee).

If I moved into a new (used) home and the boiler packed up after a short while, I'd be miffed, but would shrug and crack on, not chase the seller.

Exactly! If you buy a house with a 15 year old boiler then near term replacement is priced in.

When buying a house in Scotland the boiler is one of the few things the new buyer has a comeback on.

[21st Century Man]

Driver101 said:

When buying a house in Scotland the boiler is one of the few things the new buyer has a comeback on.

Usually Scottish law is better, this seems not. I wonder what rights the private buyer of a 15 year old used car at £900 has in Scotland? It must be quite something if a worthless old boiler in an old house is covered. Amazing!

[irc]

Driver101 said:

irc said:

21st Century Man said:

Mindblowing!

Some people actually expect a used appliance in a used home to have some sort of warranty?

Do secondhand homes even have any legal type of warranty? Outside of the survey findings? (Unlike a new home with the builders, NHBC guarantee).

If I moved into a new (used) home and the boiler packed up after a short while, I'd be miffed, but would shrug and crack on, not chase the seller.

Exactly! If you buy a house with a 15 year old boiler then near term replacement is priced in.

When buying a house in Scotland the boiler is one of the few things the new buyer has a comeback on.

It depends. When we sold my dad's house (in Scotland) we just refused to give any warranty on the 40 year old boiler. The price offered didn't change.

[PaulD86]

irc said:

Driver101 said:

irc said:

21st Century Man said:

Mindblowing!

Some people actually expect a used appliance in a used home to have some sort of warranty?

Do secondhand homes even have any legal type of warranty? Outside of the survey findings? (Unlike a new home with the builders, NHBC guarantee).

If I moved into a new (used) home and the boiler packed up after a short while, I'd be miffed, but would shrug and crack on, not chase the seller.

Exactly! If you buy a house with a 15 year old boiler then near term replacement is priced in.

When buying a house in Scotland the boiler is one of the few things the new buyer has a comeback on.

It depends. When we sold my dad's house (in Scotland) we just refused to give any warranty on the 40 year old boiler. The price offered didn't change.

Scotland has a list of standard clauses, some of which I posted above as they are relvevant. These keep things simple, for the most part, and with agreement of both parties clauses may be deleted - if a seller wants something deleted, the purchaser may choose to agree but only if the price is altered accordingly, for example. It is pretty standard that a number of clauses will be deleted, and indeed it is necessary as some will not apply to the property being sold. So effectively you have a list of standard clauses you can pick and choose from. It is, however, fairly normal here that the seller will warrant the heating system for 5 days from the date of entry. If I were buying a house and the seller wished this clause to be deleted, it would suggest they may be aware of an issue, or just that it was an old boiler. If the latter, I would have priced that in to my offer, but if the seller wanted this clause deleted and the boiler wasn't that old I'd be suspicious. But as I say, no one is forced to have this clause as part of a sale. It's a good system.

[layercake]

Thanks folks for the replies, im in Scotland, it's the buyers who are saying its a pcb and asking for £800 I know this should cost around £160 - £200 max I've had a couple of quotes. The buyers have replaced the boiler at their own cost but demanding payment for repair. Boiler was serviced and maintained by BG including gas safely checks every year. I had tested boiler the day before I handed the keys over.

[sunnyb13]

No absolutely do not. Defend the claim. Pick somewhere down south of england for the court hearing to be heard.