Questions for the religious
Discussion
I start this thread with trepidation as it could descend to ridiculing of religious people, which is not my intention. Please play nice!
I have never believed in anything, certainly not as an adult (maybe there was a period I believed in santa - I can’t remember it though). So I find it hard to understand how and why people do believe. In particular there seem to be some key facts that don’t seem reconcilable with most religious belief and I do wonder how believers do manage to reconcile them with their beliefs (if they do).
One key one relates to how other religions are viewed. Taking Christianity and the Norse Gods as examples (being that I was brought up in what was a Christian country and I’m not living in Scandinavia). There probably aren’t many people alive today who are active followers of the Norse Gods, who are presented in movies alongside fictional characters like iron man and wizards. Yet the Nordic gods and Christianity were contemporary religions and people used to believe in them in the same way as Christians believe in their god. We have no way of knowing exactly but it has been estimated that there may have been 3000 religions or more over human history (that feels like a massive underestimate given that humans are around 250,000 years old). How do current day believers view all the dead religions (or even competing, current religions)? As myths?
Linked in with the first question is related to your god’s relationship with non believers. Almost all religions seem to give god/gods a central role in creation and key to humanity. I think it has been estimated that something like a 100 billion people have ever lived, the majority being before any of the current religions came into existence. If you include earlier species or sister species then that number would increase substantially. Why would your god(s) not have reached out to the vast majority of mankind that came before organised religions appeared?
Similarly, the universe (at least the bit of it we can see) appears to be 13.8 billion years old. We can see around 700,000,000,000,000 galaxies and the average galaxy has around 400,000,000,000 stars. What did your god do for the 13.78 billion years before humans appeared on the scene and why is the universe so big (and as far as we can tell, empty)?
I have never believed in anything, certainly not as an adult (maybe there was a period I believed in santa - I can’t remember it though). So I find it hard to understand how and why people do believe. In particular there seem to be some key facts that don’t seem reconcilable with most religious belief and I do wonder how believers do manage to reconcile them with their beliefs (if they do).
One key one relates to how other religions are viewed. Taking Christianity and the Norse Gods as examples (being that I was brought up in what was a Christian country and I’m not living in Scandinavia). There probably aren’t many people alive today who are active followers of the Norse Gods, who are presented in movies alongside fictional characters like iron man and wizards. Yet the Nordic gods and Christianity were contemporary religions and people used to believe in them in the same way as Christians believe in their god. We have no way of knowing exactly but it has been estimated that there may have been 3000 religions or more over human history (that feels like a massive underestimate given that humans are around 250,000 years old). How do current day believers view all the dead religions (or even competing, current religions)? As myths?
Linked in with the first question is related to your god’s relationship with non believers. Almost all religions seem to give god/gods a central role in creation and key to humanity. I think it has been estimated that something like a 100 billion people have ever lived, the majority being before any of the current religions came into existence. If you include earlier species or sister species then that number would increase substantially. Why would your god(s) not have reached out to the vast majority of mankind that came before organised religions appeared?
Similarly, the universe (at least the bit of it we can see) appears to be 13.8 billion years old. We can see around 700,000,000,000,000 galaxies and the average galaxy has around 400,000,000,000 stars. What did your god do for the 13.78 billion years before humans appeared on the scene and why is the universe so big (and as far as we can tell, empty)?
On the most important day in the Islamic or Hindu calendar, why don't you make a post questioning people's motivations and beliefs? You obviously feel it perfectly acceptable to do so with the Christian faith. Your post smacks of, 'I don't mean to be rude but....' As long as other's views and beliefs aren't impacting on you, who cares.
As for what was here before the universe, science is about as effective at answering that question as religion.
As for what was here before the universe, science is about as effective at answering that question as religion.
You’re trolling a bit.
I enjoy playing God of War. I don’t think I’m the God of War.
I’ve been religious, I’m now very much not.
I’m sure you’re aware of give me the child and I’ll give you the man type quotes and attitudes over the centuries. They persist because they’re true. Brainwashing, indoctrination, whatever you want to call it would not be permitted for anything other than religion in the same way. But we even allow schools to call it an ethos and send our children to them knowing they’ll be indoctrinated.
I look at it and don’t know whether to laugh or get annoyed. I’ve a niece who is so religious she’s considering becoming a nun but likes the boys too much for that to happen.
I got married in a Catholic Church to keep my wife happy. The priest knew I was not a believer but went ahead with it. The Catholic Church will make more money out of me than I will out of him.
The one true faith I have is in human nature. The good bits and the bad bits.
I enjoy playing God of War. I don’t think I’m the God of War.
I’ve been religious, I’m now very much not.
I’m sure you’re aware of give me the child and I’ll give you the man type quotes and attitudes over the centuries. They persist because they’re true. Brainwashing, indoctrination, whatever you want to call it would not be permitted for anything other than religion in the same way. But we even allow schools to call it an ethos and send our children to them knowing they’ll be indoctrinated.
I look at it and don’t know whether to laugh or get annoyed. I’ve a niece who is so religious she’s considering becoming a nun but likes the boys too much for that to happen.
I got married in a Catholic Church to keep my wife happy. The priest knew I was not a believer but went ahead with it. The Catholic Church will make more money out of me than I will out of him.
The one true faith I have is in human nature. The good bits and the bad bits.
Jonmx said:
On the most important day in the Islamic or Hindu calendar, why don't you make a post questioning people's motivations and beliefs? You obviously feel it perfectly acceptable to do so with the Christian faith. Your post smacks of, 'I don't mean to be rude but....' As long as other's views and beliefs aren't impacting on you, who cares.
As for what was here before the universe, science is about as effective at answering that question as religion.
Perhaps Christianity is on the OP's mind because it's Easter? It's fascinating that there are people who sincerely believe that a bloke 2,000 years ago rose from the dead and levitated bodily into the sky until he disappeared from view. As for what was here before the universe, science is about as effective at answering that question as religion.
Other religions have similarly silly stories.
I'm happy to bite for specific questions, from my Christian perspective.
However I'll be slow today, off to relations for Sunday lunch!!
Abrahamic God created the universe and was around from the beginning.
Christ only came recently, because humans kept messing it up.
I don't believe in the 3000 years of American creationism.
Pointless (IMO) quoting huge numbers of other stars and suggesting life out there, we haven't heard anything as yet.
So what would you like to know, and again, unlike Arnie, I'll not be back for ages sorry....
Right off to scoff!
However I'll be slow today, off to relations for Sunday lunch!!
Abrahamic God created the universe and was around from the beginning.
Christ only came recently, because humans kept messing it up.
I don't believe in the 3000 years of American creationism.
Pointless (IMO) quoting huge numbers of other stars and suggesting life out there, we haven't heard anything as yet.
So what would you like to know, and again, unlike Arnie, I'll not be back for ages sorry....
Right off to scoff!
I was brought up Church of England, hymns at prep school and occasional visits to church, but no strong brainwashing. I guess I was agnostic most of my life, more atheist during my university years.
Then about 5 years ago I would say I had a damascene conversion, with the emphasis on Christ. I don’t bother talking about it much. I still rarely go to church. I have my inner connection to something that is more than any of us can possibly imagine and I am happy with that.
I’m not celebrating Easter, I’m currently sat in my local pub.
I dont try to convert people but have helped people come off heroin and booze/cocaine addiction with prayer.
Each to their own - live and let live
Then about 5 years ago I would say I had a damascene conversion, with the emphasis on Christ. I don’t bother talking about it much. I still rarely go to church. I have my inner connection to something that is more than any of us can possibly imagine and I am happy with that.
I’m not celebrating Easter, I’m currently sat in my local pub.
I dont try to convert people but have helped people come off heroin and booze/cocaine addiction with prayer.
Each to their own - live and let live
.
Whilst it is easy to say
“I’ve never believed in anything”
I think most people & to some degree animals have a sense of right & wrong towards themselves & others.
For me most religions seem to be an attempt at a code to live by. Stories, either of fact/fiction, are told as a means to help educate & guide.
Many of the religious teachings/customs I have come across (various religions) I can understand the underlying message.
As such I think it’s important to bear in mind yes there are some religious folks who read their books as works of fact, there are probably many more followers who consider then a handy life guide & appreciate the references within.
(Now my personal belief on religion failing/reducing & new ways of guidance appearing is when governed by those who view everything as fact, they are very reluctant to update or accept change so become more & more outdated / less relevant as time goes on.)
“I’ve never believed in anything”
I think most people & to some degree animals have a sense of right & wrong towards themselves & others.
For me most religions seem to be an attempt at a code to live by. Stories, either of fact/fiction, are told as a means to help educate & guide.
Many of the religious teachings/customs I have come across (various religions) I can understand the underlying message.
As such I think it’s important to bear in mind yes there are some religious folks who read their books as works of fact, there are probably many more followers who consider then a handy life guide & appreciate the references within.
(Now my personal belief on religion failing/reducing & new ways of guidance appearing is when governed by those who view everything as fact, they are very reluctant to update or accept change so become more & more outdated / less relevant as time goes on.)
AndyAudi said:
Whilst it is easy to say
“I’ve never believed in anything”
I think most people & to some degree animals have a sense of right & wrong towards themselves & others.
For me most religions seem to be an attempt at a code to live by. Stories, either of fact/fiction, are told as a means to help educate & guide.
Many of the religious teachings/customs I have come across (various religions) I can understand the underlying message.
As such I think it’s important to bear in mind yes there are some religious folks who read their books as works of fact, there are probably many more followers who consider then a handy life guide & appreciate the references within.
(Now my personal belief on religion failing/reducing & new ways of guidance appearing is when governed by those who view everything as fact, they are very reluctant to update or accept change so become more & more outdated / less relevant as time goes on.)
This is well worth a watch, Christopher Hitchens on the Ten Commandments:“I’ve never believed in anything”
I think most people & to some degree animals have a sense of right & wrong towards themselves & others.
For me most religions seem to be an attempt at a code to live by. Stories, either of fact/fiction, are told as a means to help educate & guide.
Many of the religious teachings/customs I have come across (various religions) I can understand the underlying message.
As such I think it’s important to bear in mind yes there are some religious folks who read their books as works of fact, there are probably many more followers who consider then a handy life guide & appreciate the references within.
(Now my personal belief on religion failing/reducing & new ways of guidance appearing is when governed by those who view everything as fact, they are very reluctant to update or accept change so become more & more outdated / less relevant as time goes on.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-63cTYJDCA&t=...
Edited by paulguitar on Sunday 9th April 13:56
Jonmx said:
On the most important day in the Islamic or Hindu calendar, why don't you make a post questioning people's motivations and beliefs? You obviously feel it perfectly acceptable to do so with the Christian faith. Your post smacks of, 'I don't mean to be rude but....' As long as other's views and beliefs aren't impacting on you, who cares.
As for what was here before the universe, science is about as effective at answering that question as religion.
I didn’t question motivations or beliefs. I raised three questions. They weren’t specifically aimed at Christians.As for what was here before the universe, science is about as effective at answering that question as religion.
Jonmx said:
As for what was here before the universe, science is about as effective at answering that question as religion.
Science cannot explain something "Therefore God" is just about the weakest of all the weak arguments for a supernatural creator.I do not care what people choose to believe, but please do not try and rationalise it out loud if you ever want to be taken seriously.
Slow.Patrol said:
Have a read of a book entitled "Mere Christianity" by C S Lewis.
It is not an easy read, but it might answer some of your questions OP.
CS Lewis provided me with many happy times reading his books as a child. As an adult I don’t consider his views on religion as well thought out as some think and get annoyed at attempts to lionise him as some great sage. He had a viewpoint and argued for it. He put time into thinking about it. No more no less. His trilemma point is quite hilarious when you don’t start from the same assumptions. The bigger problem is the assumption that Christianity is something that needs disproved and who the onus should be on, it doesn’t as no one has proved it yet.It is not an easy read, but it might answer some of your questions OP.
I completely understand why people would believe in a God or Gods. There are (at last count) +/- 3000 Gods known.
Which one you believe in depends on where or when you were born.
People believe in any one of the 3000, is mostly because they are aware that they will die and want to live on after death, and believe there is a greater reason to their existence. A reason beyond their existence.
It is completely understandable. I don't blame them. I just don't buy their argument as they have no proof, and science makes nonsense of everything they say. Good luck to them, as they will find a lot of solace and comfort in their beliefs.
You just have to add 2 + 2 and make 4, and not 5.
Sadly, and I mean that, I find that 2+2 = 4, not a fantasy where we all end up happy in heaven or burning in eternal flames. I mean, if we made that up, we'd just say it was daft, wouldn't we?
Apparently not. We need to grow up, and as a species, smell the coffee, and deal with what we have now, not what we might have after death.
Which one you believe in depends on where or when you were born.
People believe in any one of the 3000, is mostly because they are aware that they will die and want to live on after death, and believe there is a greater reason to their existence. A reason beyond their existence.
It is completely understandable. I don't blame them. I just don't buy their argument as they have no proof, and science makes nonsense of everything they say. Good luck to them, as they will find a lot of solace and comfort in their beliefs.
You just have to add 2 + 2 and make 4, and not 5.
Sadly, and I mean that, I find that 2+2 = 4, not a fantasy where we all end up happy in heaven or burning in eternal flames. I mean, if we made that up, we'd just say it was daft, wouldn't we?
Apparently not. We need to grow up, and as a species, smell the coffee, and deal with what we have now, not what we might have after death.
That’s a good point. I understand the belief, I’ve even had it once but it went a long time ago.
I don’t think less of people for believing, that’s not entirely true I try not to is more accurate, but I’ll defend my right to question them as history has many examples of what happens when religious people get too much unquestioned control.
Religion can be a force for good, I 100% realise that. It can be a tool of oppression and more often is.
Name a place on the planet today that’s better off due to religion and I’ll name a dozen that aren’t. Of course some would think that’s because they believe in the wrong religion and would like to educate them.
I don’t think less of people for believing, that’s not entirely true I try not to is more accurate, but I’ll defend my right to question them as history has many examples of what happens when religious people get too much unquestioned control.
Religion can be a force for good, I 100% realise that. It can be a tool of oppression and more often is.
Name a place on the planet today that’s better off due to religion and I’ll name a dozen that aren’t. Of course some would think that’s because they believe in the wrong religion and would like to educate them.
Good on you but I immediately thought of this scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2CjYRuSB3U
There ain’t no bat.
There ain’t no bat.
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