Minibus hire for club outing
Discussion
My running club is planning a small trip to a running festival about 100 miles away and has asked me to look into the cost of hiring a minibus to take everyone there.
Any idea on the rules around licensing/insurance for doing such a thing? My licence covers class D1 (vehicles up to 16 seats), but as people would be technically paying for entry to the event and transport would I fall foul of "hire or reward" rules?
Any idea on the rules around licensing/insurance for doing such a thing? My licence covers class D1 (vehicles up to 16 seats), but as people would be technically paying for entry to the event and transport would I fall foul of "hire or reward" rules?
Did you pass your test before Jan 1997? If you did you get D1 and its fine provided your not paid.
If you passed after that...
Its tricky, you not being paid and its not a commercial venture however the Hire and reward laws are not very clear. Normally its a not for profit organisation can apply for a permit.
I would say unless you have a not for profit org that is providing the minibus no! However someone may have better understand than me.
here > https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/section...
https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/blog/2023/01/minibus-...
Adrian Flux say you need a permit, ignore the above poster as they have failed to qualify your situation, doesn't even know if you have a D1!
Issue being its social but also for an organisation, unless you hire it to take some mates running then its social hired by you!
If you passed after that...
Its tricky, you not being paid and its not a commercial venture however the Hire and reward laws are not very clear. Normally its a not for profit organisation can apply for a permit.
I would say unless you have a not for profit org that is providing the minibus no! However someone may have better understand than me.
here > https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/section...
https://www.adrianflux.co.uk/blog/2023/01/minibus-...
Adrian Flux say you need a permit, ignore the above poster as they have failed to qualify your situation, doesn't even know if you have a D1!
Issue being its social but also for an organisation, unless you hire it to take some mates running then its social hired by you!
Edited by DashDriver on Tuesday 18th April 12:19
DashDriver said:
vikingaero said:
Keyword is profit. If you are only charging them for the hire of the minibus and fuel then that is fine.
You don't even know if the OP has a D1 and it appears they may need a permit why comment if you don't know what you are talking about?littleredrooster said:
DashDriver said:
You don't even know if the OP has a D1 and it appears they may need a permit why comment if you don't know what you are talking about?
Am I missing something (or are you missing something...)?The OP said:
My licence covers class D1
I passed 1999 so don't have D1.
vaud said:
You might want to check on that, it isn't black and white as the "profit" is not codified into law.
If the OP hires the buss to take his running pals on a day out though he should be covered, the running club hiring the bus is what muddies the water for me. If you don't have a D1 I believe your not for profit have to apply for sec 19/21 permit from the DVSA. Its the running club muddying the waters, as it need to be not for profit and likely get a permit from the DVSA sec 19 or 21 as I read adrian flux site in it.
Its fine for social reasons to drive a 16 minibus on a car licence as I understand it. The club hiring the bus makes that messy in my mind.
Edited by DashDriver on Tuesday 18th April 12:36
DashDriver said:
littleredrooster said:
DashDriver said:
You don't even know if the OP has a D1 and it appears they may need a permit why comment if you don't know what you are talking about?
Am I missing something (or are you missing something...)?The OP said:
My licence covers class D1
I passed 1999 so don't have D1.
So i know i can legally drive a minibus, the question is whether i can legally drive a minibus that has people on board who are paying towards its hire and fuel?
DashDriver said:
littleredrooster said:
DashDriver said:
You don't even know if the OP has a D1 and it appears they may need a permit why comment if you don't know what you are talking about?
Am I missing something (or are you missing something...)?The OP said:
My licence covers class D1
I passed 1999 so don't have D1.
boyse7en said:
I passed my test in 1988, so it includes D1 classification. Which is why i said "My licence covers class D1".
So i know i can legally drive a minibus, the question is whether i can legally drive a minibus that has people on board who are paying towards its hire and fuel?
No its hire or reward under law as I read it....So i know i can legally drive a minibus, the question is whether i can legally drive a minibus that has people on board who are paying towards its hire and fuel?
‘Hire and reward’ is the legal term for payment for providing transport. It’s any payment, in cash or kind, which gives a person the right to be carried on a vehicle, regardless of whether that right is exercised. The payment may be made by the passenger or on the passenger’s behalf.
Fares, subscriptions, donations, grants, payments for another services and money drawn from club funds would all be treated as ‘hire and reward’. This applies even when no profit is made or when transport is only part of a package.
Operators need to be very careful before assuming that their operation is not for ‘hire or reward’
https://www.bing.com/search?q=definition+of+hire+a...
vaud said:
Probably easiest to call a broker, or talk to the insurer for the minibus.
As I see it legally the OP has 2 options:Option 1- He pays for minibus hire personally and fuel doesn't charge the club mates and he is individual who hires the bus.
Option 2- The club gets a permit from the DVSA as not for profit and they cover the minibus hire.
//... option 3 they hire a provisional driver and vehicle
boyse7en said:
I passed my test in 1988, so it includes D1 classification. Which is why i said "My licence covers class D1".
So i know i can legally drive a minibus, the question is whether i can legally drive a minibus that has people on board who are paying towards its hire and fuel?
I used to run 2 minibuses for the scouts, so looked at this very carefully. Alas it was 5+ years ago. however..So i know i can legally drive a minibus, the question is whether i can legally drive a minibus that has people on board who are paying towards its hire and fuel?
The short answer is NO - you cannot legally drive a minibus that has people on board who are paying towards its hire and fuel. "For profit" is not relevant.
Even if you were not to charge them, if they pay club membership, then they ARE paying for the service and a D1 is only sufficient with a permit.
Here is an extract from the handbook I wrote for scout minibus (IANAL) - driven by volunteers who were not paid. No charge to the scouts in the bus either, but as they were fees to be members of the scouts organisation a permit was needed:
Section 19/22 - Transport Act 1985 Permits (Small Bus Permits)
You must consider if you require a permit to allow you to operate a minibus. If you are using the minibus to carry members of an organised group with a membership fee (Scouts, Guides etc) then it is likely that a permit is required. Failure to obtain a required permit will put you in breach of the insurance T&Cs. This would mean in any claim only 3rd parties would receive a pay-out and the insurance company could then recover the costs from the driver personally.
The permit is issued to the organising group (not the vehicle), and is not transferable. So the permits held by the vehicle operator/owner are not valid for use by other parties.
Guidance is available on the government website which can be found:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/section...
Edited by OverSteery on Tuesday 18th April 13:24
vaud said:
Probably easiest to call a broker, or talk to the insurer for the minibus.
I was going to say that, the insurer will tell the OP what hoops they need to jump through.I think a lot of the posts here are a bit muddled because the OP has D1, but the Hire and Reward Exemption was brought in specifically to cover the issues arising from the removal of D1 that meant lots of non-profits were going to have to put people through a Mini Bus test or stop operating their charitable services. If you have D1 the exemption is not relevant.
The DVLA website does not apply any restriction to the D1 category, it says:
Category D1; You can drive vehicles with: No more than 16 passenger seats, a maximum length of 8 metres, a trailer up to 750kg.
The question of payment would only be relevant to the insurance level that is required. I don't think sharing the costs with the passengers for the purpose of getting everyone to a race that you had an interest in them going to would amount to commercial or business use.
You may want to be careful about how you work out how much money to collect off people, but from a practical perspective if you wait until after you've got back to sort it out you'll know if you've crashed it or been stopped by the Police so you'll know whether you need to get it bang on to the nearest penny.
paulrockliffe said:
vaud said:
Probably easiest to call a broker, or talk to the insurer for the minibus.
I was going to say that, the insurer will tell the OP what hoops they need to jump through.I think a lot of the posts here are a bit muddled because the OP has D1, but the Hire and Reward Exemption was brought in specifically to cover the issues arising from the removal of D1 that meant lots of non-profits were going to have to put people through a Mini Bus test or stop operating their charitable services. If you have D1 the exemption is not relevant.
The DVLA website does not apply any restriction to the D1 category, it says:
Category D1; You can drive vehicles with: No more than 16 passenger seats, a maximum length of 8 metres, a trailer up to 750kg.
The question of payment would only be relevant to the insurance level that is required. I don't think sharing the costs with the passengers for the purpose of getting everyone to a race that you had an interest in them going to would amount to commercial or business use.
You may want to be careful about how you work out how much money to collect off people, but from a practical perspective if you wait until after you've got back to sort it out you'll know if you've crashed it or been stopped by the Police so you'll know whether you need to get it bang on to the nearest penny.
The area is needlessly complex and took me some time to get fully to grips with.
NO - it's not JUST about insurance, you may be considered to a PSV operator. That carries massive obligations on top of just having insurance.
Do not rely on whoever answers the phone at the insurance company to know all the details of the legalities of driving on the road.
from Gov website
Normally, an organisation operating in Great Britain (GB) that accepts any sort of payment for providing transport to passengers must hold either a PSV ‘O’ licence or a private hire vehicle (PHV) licence.
the bold is mine..
Edited by OverSteery on Tuesday 18th April 13:33
OverSteery said:
Sorry - but this is simply not correct.
The area is needlessly complex and took me some time to get fully to grips with.
NO - it's not JUST about insurance, you may be considered to a PSV operator. That carries massive obligations on top of just having insurance.
Do not rely on whoever answers the phone at the insurance company to know all the details of the legalities of driving on the road.
from Gov website
Normally, an organisation operating in Great Britain (GB) that accepts any sort of payment for providing transport to passengers must hold either a PSV ‘O’ licence or a private hire vehicle (PHV) licence.
the bold is mine..
Finally someone who gets it...The area is needlessly complex and took me some time to get fully to grips with.
NO - it's not JUST about insurance, you may be considered to a PSV operator. That carries massive obligations on top of just having insurance.
Do not rely on whoever answers the phone at the insurance company to know all the details of the legalities of driving on the road.
from Gov website
Normally, an organisation operating in Great Britain (GB) that accepts any sort of payment for providing transport to passengers must hold either a PSV ‘O’ licence or a private hire vehicle (PHV) licence.
the bold is mine..
Edited by OverSteery on Tuesday 18th April 13:33
As soon as money changes hand or its for a organisation its a massive hot potato.
The OP needs a PSV medical, CPC its a massive bottom ache as I understand it.
The easiest thing is to hire a a driver and vehicle and avoid it all, or the op takes no payment and its just his mate on a social trip that happen to be part of the same running club.
DashDriver said:
OverSteery said:
Sorry - but this is simply not correct.
The area is needlessly complex and took me some time to get fully to grips with.
NO - it's not JUST about insurance, you may be considered to a PSV operator. That carries massive obligations on top of just having insurance.
Do not rely on whoever answers the phone at the insurance company to know all the details of the legalities of driving on the road.
from Gov website
Normally, an organisation operating in Great Britain (GB) that accepts any sort of payment for providing transport to passengers must hold either a PSV ‘O’ licence or a private hire vehicle (PHV) licence.
the bold is mine..
Finally someone who gets it...The area is needlessly complex and took me some time to get fully to grips with.
NO - it's not JUST about insurance, you may be considered to a PSV operator. That carries massive obligations on top of just having insurance.
Do not rely on whoever answers the phone at the insurance company to know all the details of the legalities of driving on the road.
from Gov website
Normally, an organisation operating in Great Britain (GB) that accepts any sort of payment for providing transport to passengers must hold either a PSV ‘O’ licence or a private hire vehicle (PHV) licence.
the bold is mine..
Edited by OverSteery on Tuesday 18th April 13:33
As soon as money changes hand or its for a organisation its a massive hot potato.
The OP needs a PSV medical, CPC its a massive bottom ache as I understand it.
The easiest thing is to hire a a driver and vehicle and avoid it all, or the op takes no payment and its just his mate on a social trip that happen to be part of the same running club.
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