How much can I charge for a cup of coffee?
Discussion
I was watching Question Time on Thursday. A woman in the audience asked the panel a question that resonated with me deeply and the panels answer depressed me deeply.
The women owned a coffee shop that employed roughly a dozen staff. The coffee shop owner said that her staff were asking for pay rises, her stock prices are increasing, rents and rates increasing, electricity bills increasing and business tax increasing. She asked the panel with all the costs increasing what ca. she realistically charge for a coffee to absorb all these cost inflations.
The panels answer was non existent, hollow and for members of government frightening.
I own a family business and I feel the same way as the coffee shop owner. My costs are increasing out of control but I can not pass it in to the customer because the customers will not use me. I can not get or keep staff but they want more and more wages. I can’t afford to pay them more. If I pay them more and my competitors pay their staff more then me and my competitors are back to square one again and we need to increase wages to attract staff.
I contemplate salary’s a lot and how much I can afford to pay. I was looking for a barometer for a salary and thought about the Police it Firemen because they are good professional jobs paid for by the government who make out minimum wage policy. In Scotland the starting salary of a policeman is £29k. According to the website they work four 12 hour shifts in average equaling 48 hours a week (I have no doubt they do a lot of overtime). A quick calculation £29k / 52 week / 48 hours = £11.62 per hour. I pay £11 per hour.
I have anxiety thinking abut the next couple of years. When will inflation end? How inflation will end? Will getting and resting staff get easier? Where are my margins going to come from in the future?
When I think of possible solutions moving forward I then have barriers put in place by government or local authorities rules and regulations but ironically they want to pay for anything.
I speak to a lot of small business owners who are in the same situation. I know a guy who operated a very successful hotel but sold it because he had enough. I work most of last year without a day off. I am thinking about downsizing or liquidating my assets and liking for job with no responsibilities.m but I’m only 41. If I am thinking about down sizing or giving up and my friends with own business are thinking the same then what does that mean for economy and jobs moving forward?
I keep watching tv about public sector workers wanting pay rises and everyone wants to pander to them and then the private sector workers expect the same but when does it stop because what’s the point of getting pay rises when a cup of coffee will cost £6!
The women owned a coffee shop that employed roughly a dozen staff. The coffee shop owner said that her staff were asking for pay rises, her stock prices are increasing, rents and rates increasing, electricity bills increasing and business tax increasing. She asked the panel with all the costs increasing what ca. she realistically charge for a coffee to absorb all these cost inflations.
The panels answer was non existent, hollow and for members of government frightening.
I own a family business and I feel the same way as the coffee shop owner. My costs are increasing out of control but I can not pass it in to the customer because the customers will not use me. I can not get or keep staff but they want more and more wages. I can’t afford to pay them more. If I pay them more and my competitors pay their staff more then me and my competitors are back to square one again and we need to increase wages to attract staff.
I contemplate salary’s a lot and how much I can afford to pay. I was looking for a barometer for a salary and thought about the Police it Firemen because they are good professional jobs paid for by the government who make out minimum wage policy. In Scotland the starting salary of a policeman is £29k. According to the website they work four 12 hour shifts in average equaling 48 hours a week (I have no doubt they do a lot of overtime). A quick calculation £29k / 52 week / 48 hours = £11.62 per hour. I pay £11 per hour.
I have anxiety thinking abut the next couple of years. When will inflation end? How inflation will end? Will getting and resting staff get easier? Where are my margins going to come from in the future?
When I think of possible solutions moving forward I then have barriers put in place by government or local authorities rules and regulations but ironically they want to pay for anything.
I speak to a lot of small business owners who are in the same situation. I know a guy who operated a very successful hotel but sold it because he had enough. I work most of last year without a day off. I am thinking about downsizing or liquidating my assets and liking for job with no responsibilities.m but I’m only 41. If I am thinking about down sizing or giving up and my friends with own business are thinking the same then what does that mean for economy and jobs moving forward?
I keep watching tv about public sector workers wanting pay rises and everyone wants to pander to them and then the private sector workers expect the same but when does it stop because what’s the point of getting pay rises when a cup of coffee will cost £6!
The problem with coffee shops is that there are too many of them and many of them are crap.
What will I pay for a cup of coffee?
It depends.
If it's £4 each and we get somewhere nice to sit, good service and good coffee, we'll probably go back again.
But £3 in an indifferent place, mediocre coffee which takes ages to arrive in a paper cup, I probably won't be back.
I don't give a s
t about their overheads or staffing problems. I'm the customer.
They are a service industry and if I don't like they are offering, I won't want to buy.
A lot of coffee shops need to look at their operation and see it from the customer's POV.
Slow service, queueing to be sold poor quality products.
You can make good money selling good coffee for £3, you just need turnover. That means being able to serve people quickly and move on to the next punter.
It also means not being the umpteenth coffee shop in a small town so there's not enough demand to go around.
And maybe having opening hours which actually suit more people?
People are cutting back on their spending, there is less money to be splurged on drinking coffee out.
But personally, it's the poor service and failure to sell filter or cafetiere coffee which makes me prefer taking a thermos.
What will I pay for a cup of coffee?
It depends.
If it's £4 each and we get somewhere nice to sit, good service and good coffee, we'll probably go back again.
But £3 in an indifferent place, mediocre coffee which takes ages to arrive in a paper cup, I probably won't be back.
I don't give a s
t about their overheads or staffing problems. I'm the customer.They are a service industry and if I don't like they are offering, I won't want to buy.
A lot of coffee shops need to look at their operation and see it from the customer's POV.
Slow service, queueing to be sold poor quality products.
You can make good money selling good coffee for £3, you just need turnover. That means being able to serve people quickly and move on to the next punter.
It also means not being the umpteenth coffee shop in a small town so there's not enough demand to go around.
And maybe having opening hours which actually suit more people?
People are cutting back on their spending, there is less money to be splurged on drinking coffee out.
But personally, it's the poor service and failure to sell filter or cafetiere coffee which makes me prefer taking a thermos.
The company I worked for until September last year was in a similar predicament. Large multinational working in the retail space being squeezed by escalating operating cost with staff being squeezed by escalating living costs. I was on just over £20k doing a job that I was massively overqualified for, though happy enough as it was a 20 minute walk from home, but when I was told I'd get a 1.75% pay increase in September (while being bludgeoned by the news with sob stories from unionised workers who were already on £30k+ and wanted double digit rises) it was that last straw, so I left and got a job paying around 50% more, albeit with a commute. I bumped into my old boss recently and he was saying they're struggling to retain and recruit people as everyone's leaving to work at Aldi and the like who pay more than they can afford to.
To me, giving huge payrises to a minority who have the luxury of being able to hold the country to ransom by striking just means that high living costs will become the new normal for everyone, while the high pay needed to service these costs will only be the new normal for a minority who can strike to get it. Meanwhile, the government will congratulate itself for solving the costs of living crisis because the strikes have stopped, but many more will be plunged into eternal poverty because they can't strike, their employers can't afford to pay them more and the government thinks there's no longer problem.
What we really need is a viable cost of living solution for everyone, including businesses, instead of massive pay rises for pubic sector, rail, etc. workers who are already a lot better paid than most private sector non-management workers.
To me, giving huge payrises to a minority who have the luxury of being able to hold the country to ransom by striking just means that high living costs will become the new normal for everyone, while the high pay needed to service these costs will only be the new normal for a minority who can strike to get it. Meanwhile, the government will congratulate itself for solving the costs of living crisis because the strikes have stopped, but many more will be plunged into eternal poverty because they can't strike, their employers can't afford to pay them more and the government thinks there's no longer problem.
What we really need is a viable cost of living solution for everyone, including businesses, instead of massive pay rises for pubic sector, rail, etc. workers who are already a lot better paid than most private sector non-management workers.
Or maybe we need a clearout of people doing jobs which we don't value?
Maybe if people knew there was more money in being a nurse than working in a coffee shop, that would be no bad thing?
Basically the Blair-Latte years are over.
As a country we need to get back to real work.
Retail has had a lot of writing on a lot of walls for a long time now.
Businesses need to move with the times.
Just because a shop or restaurant made a lot of money in the Blair/Cameron years doesn't mean there's a place for it now.
Maybe if people knew there was more money in being a nurse than working in a coffee shop, that would be no bad thing?
Basically the Blair-Latte years are over.
As a country we need to get back to real work.
Retail has had a lot of writing on a lot of walls for a long time now.
Businesses need to move with the times.
Just because a shop or restaurant made a lot of money in the Blair/Cameron years doesn't mean there's a place for it now.
Most coffee shops would be better served with a commercial Nespresso machine and using their capsules than making piss-poor coffee with crap staff, crap beans and scalding hot milk. I’m going to say about 95% of cafes serve utter ste that you’d put up with for £2 but start charging £4+ and you can ****off.
I think a lot of businesses, in all sectors, either need to up their quality, service and products or suffer the consequences.
te that you’d put up with for £2 but start charging £4+ and you can ****off. I think a lot of businesses, in all sectors, either need to up their quality, service and products or suffer the consequences.
I'd pay extra to support a really good local business I frequented.
Cycle shops, in particular, if they aren't a chain, I don't mind paying a bit more to help them. The same would apply to a coffee shop if it was a venue that had not just good service, but a nice ambience - a place I enjoyed sitting in and passing an hour away. I'd pay extra for that - it isn't simply about the cost of the beverages or food all the time. It's the sum of the experience.
Cycle shops, in particular, if they aren't a chain, I don't mind paying a bit more to help them. The same would apply to a coffee shop if it was a venue that had not just good service, but a nice ambience - a place I enjoyed sitting in and passing an hour away. I'd pay extra for that - it isn't simply about the cost of the beverages or food all the time. It's the sum of the experience.
If it’s Under £4 I wouldn’t think too much about it, over £4 and unless it’s incredible or there are no other options I wouldn’t return.
I work in professional services and it’s the same, staff costs increasing, along with business rates, taxes etc. Its not easy to pass these costs on so we get squeezed.
I work in professional services and it’s the same, staff costs increasing, along with business rates, taxes etc. Its not easy to pass these costs on so we get squeezed.
Jumpingjackflash said:
I own a family business and I feel the same way as the coffee shop owner. My costs are increasing out of control but I can not pass it in to the customer because the customers will not use me.
My local kebab shop has increased prices 20%. So from around £6 to £7.20. He says his quarterly utilities spend, gas & electric, has gone form around £3K to £11,500. He really needs to charge about £20+ for a kebab, but no one will buy them at that price. If your busses are big ones (i.e not D1 etc) I am shocked you can pay £11/hr.
I appreciate its Scotland though so some regional variations.
I ran a fleet with C and C+E and just before I retired (12 months ago) we were paying £600/wk (40hrs) and overtime at 1.5x. (15/hr base) The busses round here are comparable. we actually used to take on bus drivers as I always thought they made good goods vehicle drivers. We were paying about 50p to £1 hr more to get them in.
Thats about the minimum I could get by and still get drivers.
I fully appreciate where you are coming from though. The costs in the transport industry and shocking at the mo. When I started out (20 years ago) the insurance for the whole fleet was 6k. Last year it was over 20.
Fuel is a joke. DVSA down your trousers all the time.
Constant worry about accidents and drivers doing stupid things.
Thats half the reason I retired.
I was trying to run a proper outfit we had a decent size fleet, fairly new vehicles, did our R&M by the book, 100% MOT pass rate for the last few years drivers who were decent (ish!) and provided a good service etc etc.
We were competing with 1 man band who drives an 03 Iveco thats done 1,500,000KM, is on "if it aint broke dont fix it" R&M schedule, OCRS as red as red can get and driving himself and answering the phone as he goes to take jobs. If he is hung over you dont get your stuff. If a better job comes in you dont get your stuff. If he breaks down you dont get your stuff. He turns up when he feels like it.
And I used to get customers asking me why they could get a load done for £300 cash in hand and I was charging £500+VAT.
I used to have a small pool of good customers who understood what I was offering but frankly 90% of customers just look at the bottom line.
I feel for you in your position its hard work and a lot of the small operators round here have gone now as there is just no money in it anymore. The LEZs will be the final nail for a lot.
I appreciate its Scotland though so some regional variations.
I ran a fleet with C and C+E and just before I retired (12 months ago) we were paying £600/wk (40hrs) and overtime at 1.5x. (15/hr base) The busses round here are comparable. we actually used to take on bus drivers as I always thought they made good goods vehicle drivers. We were paying about 50p to £1 hr more to get them in.
Thats about the minimum I could get by and still get drivers.
I fully appreciate where you are coming from though. The costs in the transport industry and shocking at the mo. When I started out (20 years ago) the insurance for the whole fleet was 6k. Last year it was over 20.
Fuel is a joke. DVSA down your trousers all the time.
Constant worry about accidents and drivers doing stupid things.
Thats half the reason I retired.
I was trying to run a proper outfit we had a decent size fleet, fairly new vehicles, did our R&M by the book, 100% MOT pass rate for the last few years drivers who were decent (ish!) and provided a good service etc etc.
We were competing with 1 man band who drives an 03 Iveco thats done 1,500,000KM, is on "if it aint broke dont fix it" R&M schedule, OCRS as red as red can get and driving himself and answering the phone as he goes to take jobs. If he is hung over you dont get your stuff. If a better job comes in you dont get your stuff. If he breaks down you dont get your stuff. He turns up when he feels like it.
And I used to get customers asking me why they could get a load done for £300 cash in hand and I was charging £500+VAT.
I used to have a small pool of good customers who understood what I was offering but frankly 90% of customers just look at the bottom line.
I feel for you in your position its hard work and a lot of the small operators round here have gone now as there is just no money in it anymore. The LEZs will be the final nail for a lot.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Jumpingjackflash said:
I own a family business and I feel the same way as the coffee shop owner. My costs are increasing out of control but I can not pass it in to the customer because the customers will not use me.
My local kebab shop has increased prices 20%. So from around £6 to £7.20. He says his quarterly utilities spend, gas & electric, has gone form around £3K to £11,500. He really needs to charge about £20+ for a kebab, but no one will buy them at that price. Most takeaways would conveniently turn over just roughly their operating costs. The rest used to vanish. Suddenly they are declaring thousands more orders. So I think a lot of them are actually trying to keep their businesses profit neutral and settling for less cash which is keeping prices a bit lower than they should be.
I have noticed is my local pizza / kebab place has spent a massive amount re-fitting their shop. £50k easy, probably more plus cost of being closed for nearly 3 weeks. I think they have done that to eat into their pm as much as they can. Local chippy has done the same.
gotoPzero said:
If your busses are big ones (i.e not D1 etc) I am shocked you can pay £11/hr.
I appreciate its Scotland though so some regional variations.
I ran a fleet with C and C+E and just before I retired (12 months ago) we were paying £600/wk (40hrs) and overtime at 1.5x. (15/hr base) The busses round here are comparable. we actually used to take on bus drivers as I always thought they made good goods vehicle drivers. We were paying about 50p to £1 hr more to get them in.
Thats about the minimum I could get by and still get drivers.
I fully appreciate where you are coming from though. The costs in the transport industry and shocking at the mo. When I started out (20 years ago) the insurance for the whole fleet was 6k. Last year it was over 20.
Fuel is a joke. DVSA down your trousers all the time.
Constant worry about accidents and drivers doing stupid things.
Thats half the reason I retired.
I was trying to run a proper outfit we had a decent size fleet, fairly new vehicles, did our R&M by the book, 100% MOT pass rate for the last few years drivers who were decent (ish!) and provided a good service etc etc.
We were competing with 1 man band who drives an 03 Iveco thats done 1,500,000KM, is on "if it aint broke dont fix it" R&M schedule, OCRS as red as red can get and driving himself and answering the phone as he goes to take jobs. If he is hung over you dont get your stuff. If a better job comes in you dont get your stuff. If he breaks down you dont get your stuff. He turns up when he feels like it.
And I used to get customers asking me why they could get a load done for £300 cash in hand and I was charging £500+VAT.
I used to have a small pool of good customers who understood what I was offering but frankly 90% of customers just look at the bottom line.
I feel for you in your position its hard work and a lot of the small operators round here have gone now as there is just no money in it anymore. The LEZs will be the final nail for a lot.
You were paying £15 per hour? I appreciate its Scotland though so some regional variations.
I ran a fleet with C and C+E and just before I retired (12 months ago) we were paying £600/wk (40hrs) and overtime at 1.5x. (15/hr base) The busses round here are comparable. we actually used to take on bus drivers as I always thought they made good goods vehicle drivers. We were paying about 50p to £1 hr more to get them in.
Thats about the minimum I could get by and still get drivers.
I fully appreciate where you are coming from though. The costs in the transport industry and shocking at the mo. When I started out (20 years ago) the insurance for the whole fleet was 6k. Last year it was over 20.
Fuel is a joke. DVSA down your trousers all the time.
Constant worry about accidents and drivers doing stupid things.
Thats half the reason I retired.
I was trying to run a proper outfit we had a decent size fleet, fairly new vehicles, did our R&M by the book, 100% MOT pass rate for the last few years drivers who were decent (ish!) and provided a good service etc etc.
We were competing with 1 man band who drives an 03 Iveco thats done 1,500,000KM, is on "if it aint broke dont fix it" R&M schedule, OCRS as red as red can get and driving himself and answering the phone as he goes to take jobs. If he is hung over you dont get your stuff. If a better job comes in you dont get your stuff. If he breaks down you dont get your stuff. He turns up when he feels like it.
And I used to get customers asking me why they could get a load done for £300 cash in hand and I was charging £500+VAT.
I used to have a small pool of good customers who understood what I was offering but frankly 90% of customers just look at the bottom line.
I feel for you in your position its hard work and a lot of the small operators round here have gone now as there is just no money in it anymore. The LEZs will be the final nail for a lot.
That’s my point a Policeman in their first year on 40 hours a week would equate to £13.8 per hour. What hypothetically would happen to the economy and businesses if wages kept increasing?
P.s I can’t reduce staff levels because I need a driver behind the wheel of every bus or it’s doesn’t go anywhere and people grudge paying for a bus. The public don’t mind spending £4 on a pint or a coffee lol but grudge a bus fare.
When I was in Germany some years ago, coffee was expensive out, not far off the price of a pint of beer. (50cl obviously)
But they could afford it because the town was full of factories paying people good salaries to build expensive shiny things for export.
I really don't recall what it cost to travel by bus or tram.
But they could afford it because the town was full of factories paying people good salaries to build expensive shiny things for export.
I really don't recall what it cost to travel by bus or tram.
Jumpingjackflash said:
You were paying £15 per hour?
That’s my point a Policeman in their first year on 40 hours a week would equate to £13.8 per hour. What hypothetically would happen to the economy and businesses if wages kept increasing?
P.s I can’t reduce staff levels because I need a driver behind the wheel of every bus or it’s doesn’t go anywhere and people grudge paying for a bus. The public don’t mind spending £4 on a pint or a coffee lol but grudge a bus fare.
Yes, this time last year. Most of my ex drivers are now on closer to £20/hr with their new employers. High teens for sure.That’s my point a Policeman in their first year on 40 hours a week would equate to £13.8 per hour. What hypothetically would happen to the economy and businesses if wages kept increasing?
P.s I can’t reduce staff levels because I need a driver behind the wheel of every bus or it’s doesn’t go anywhere and people grudge paying for a bus. The public don’t mind spending £4 on a pint or a coffee lol but grudge a bus fare.
I used to have this conversation with myself all the time. I do feel for you.
You cant look at police / fire starting wages. They are highly in demand jobs. People will do anything to get that job. It could literally pay the minimum wage and they would still get a full post bag of applications.
Also the starting wage for these jobs usually has a bump each year, so by 10 years they will be on a lot more than say a class 2 driver.
Plus you have to take into consideration the pension and benefits are significant. There is a reason 100 times the people apply than there are jobs.
In this area (NW UK) there are very few semi skilled jobs that are sub £15 hr now IMHO. My main competitor was recently offering base salary of £40k plus £1k cost of living bonus paid every 6 months. That's for class 2.
A mate of mine runs a pub and he is having to advertise at 17/hr for bar staff. It is very unsocial hours though.
It used to boil my p*ss people would call up saying they could get a load of stone (or whatever) for £250 cash off Mr Smith. I had quoted them £500+VAT. They dont understand Mr Smith does not care about profits so long as he is making a few quid he is happy. He is 60. So long as he puts a few hundred quid cash in his pocket every day he is happy. He is living like a king on £80k+ a year cash in hand. Has 1 truck to look after which is parked in a mates yard. He buys the cheapest products he can from the worst suppliers. I quote someone on high quality 20mm single size limestone on next day basis he is delivering recycled 20mm down a month next Tuesday. But people simply don't want to pay.
Its even worse for you, as people see no value at all in busses, they dont see a cost of getting from A to B as they get off at B with nothing in their hand.
I think what you have to consider is what competitors have to charge - if you have exclusive routes etc. Maybe if you are competing then its harder, but if you are sole supplier then you can probably get away with a price increase. If its more like school / college stuff then it might be easier to put up the price.
I do wish you the best of luck, the transport industry is very difficult - always has.
I expected to retire at 55 maybe even a touch later but frankly there is no way I could have done it - I had a couple more years in me tops.
nuyorican said:
OutInTheShed said:
The problem with coffee shops is that there are too many of them.
This absolutely. They're everywhere around here. And new ones opening all the time. The butcher goes out of business, now another coffee shop. Local post office collection depot likewise. I used to think that it was some kind of money laundering thing but no. We just live in exceedingly bland times where everyone is obsessed with coffee. They even set up in the park, and people queue up to 'grab a coffee'. I don't get it. And I love coffee, but I'll have it at home. Feel for the lady and her staff, but round here there needs to be a cull. If only to have some diversity of retail spaces.
Skummy mink benefits scammer can afford a coffee and look at me.
Quite frankly I see no difference in a good jar of coffee from the shop and 2 sugars in it. At least it has less sugars than 90% of the coffees ordered from starbucks or costa.
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