RE: Stellantis testing eFuels despite all-EV future
RE: Stellantis testing eFuels despite all-EV future
Monday 24th April 2023

Stellantis testing eFuels despite all-EV future

Euro 6 engines being assessed for compatibility as part of carbon reduction drive


The eFuels argument isn’t going anywhere anytime soon; whether from legislators, OEMs or enthusiasts, everybody has something to say on the subject. And it seems like the goalposts are moving almost every week. Today’s latest development comes from Stellantis, the giant that comprises the former FCA and PSA brands, as it confirms widespread compatibility testing on a host of Euro6 engines.

This is only a European test for the moment (Dodge and Ram are also part of the group), and the commitment is still for electric cars only from 2030 - but Stellantis sees huge future potential thanks to the eFuel claim that as much as 90 per cent of carbon emissions can be saved over the dinosaur-based alternative. And since 28 engine families are being tested (found in 28 million vehicles), the firm reckons that up to 400 million tons of CO2 could be saved in Europe from 2025 to 2050. Which is not insignificant.

Those headline-grabbing stats are, as always with this kind of thing, dependent on a few factors. The first is a successful eFuels test, of course, because 28 engine families is a whole lot of motors. From tiny Abarth turbos to screaming Maserati V8s, there are a lot of Euro 6-compliant engines in the empire; the fuel should be fine, of course, but there’s no guarantee. And even if the tests are successful, there’s the availability and cost of synthetic fuel to think about; those with Astras, Mokkas, 308s, 2008s, Tipos and Mitos don’t want to be paying any more for their fuel than they already are. And they’ll want it as easily accessible as it already is. Fuelling 28 million cars for regular use with non-fossil fuel is a lot further off than 2025.

That being said, Stellantis’ decision appears to be a proactive one - not to mention a political statement given its size. Moreover, from where PH sits, it's becoming clear pretty rapidly that the wholesale decarbonisation of the industry is going to take a long time and require a lot of different approaches - meaning there is no one perfect solution. If eFuels can work in these Stellantis engines (and realistically there's no reason it shouldn't given the similarity of synthetic to fossil) and the thorny issue of production is overcome in time, the move seems like a prescient one. The tests are covering petrol and diesels engine, too, investigating the effect of extended use on things like the state of the fuelling system, engine power, startability and emissions.

“We are doubling down on our fight against global warming by testing carbon-neutral fuel as a complementary solution to our holistic decarbonization approach. While we remain steadfast in executing our aggressive electrification strategy, we must also find smart alternatives to address the CO2 emissions for the 1.3 billion existing ICE cars,” said Stellantis CEO Carlos Tavares. “By working to make sure our Stellantis engines are eFuels friendly, we are aiming at giving our customers another tool in the fight against global warming and one that can have an almost immediate impact. It is also another action we are taking that is well aligned with our commitment to be carbon neutral by 2038.”

With something like €30 billion being invested between now and 2025 in electrification and software, Stellantis clearly isn’t abandoning its EV pledge. Not least with a stated aim of halving 2021’s CO2 emissions by 2030. But by the same token, this announcement indicates a willingness to support owners with combustion engines. For an assortment of reasons, a new EV simply isn’t a viable option for a lot of customers right now. Here’s hoping the synthetic fuel infrastructure can be there to support the transition. And keep a few fantastic engines on the road.


Author
Discussion

FaustF

Original Poster:

812 posts

184 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Superb and common sense.

To moan otherwise is purely agenda driven. This is a pragmatic and sense step. Look forward to more of this.

Limpet

6,627 posts

191 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
The future will involve a combination of technologies. Batteries, hydrogen fuel cells and combustion cars (and hybrids) running on sustainable and carbon neutral fuels will all have a part to play.

Trying to shoehorn the entire population into battery cars is idiotic, and will never work.

Black S2K

1,921 posts

279 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Well, the Opel Blitz used to run OK using fuels made via the Fischer-Tropsch process in the 1930s, so that's one model they need not worry about.

History really is cyclical.

Piston Ted

299 posts

90 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
A very sensible and welcome approach indeed.

Of course very shortly the usual EV only/anti E fuel brigade will be along with their crystal balls to educate us all in a condescending manner that it won’t be affordable/possible/pie in the sky/not climate friendly etc etc etc

GT9

9,042 posts

202 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
This is fantastic news. smile

Martin 65

17 posts

145 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
A breath of fresh air - some common sense and realisation that there needs to be a mixed economy of different fuel types as a practical solution to differing needs and situations of current and future car drivers. E fuels have the potential to provide a solution to the millions of existing legacy combustion vehicles, and a far greener option than just scrapping & replacing older but perfectly serviceable cars.

The Hypno-Toad

13,311 posts

235 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Its the VHS v Betamax situation and nothing has been declared yet.

Edited by The Hypno-Toad on Monday 24th April 15:14

DonkeyApple

70,316 posts

199 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
This is possibly the greatest day in the history of mankind.

P700DEE

1,198 posts

260 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Even after we go "Electric" we will still need oil based products for many other purposes. Currently our refineries are set up to crack crude oil into various fractions like petrol, diesel, lubricants, bitumin etc. Whilst I'm sure they could re-process and cut to a minimum petrol and diesel why would it make any sense to make these from CO2 and electricity when there is plenty within most crudes without additional cracking. Is this energy efficient or is it just Greenwash and an attempt to get around the decisions of politicians who think we can just stop using oil? Surely we need efficient methods of removing CO2 from the atmosphere and reducing the huge quanties we release in?

DonkeyApple

70,316 posts

199 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
P700DEE said:
Even after we go "Electric" we will still need oil based products for many other purposes. Currently our refineries are set up to crack crude oil into various fractions like petrol, diesel, lubricants, bitumin etc. Whilst I'm sure they could re-process and cut to a minimum petrol and diesel why would it make any sense to make these from CO2 and electricity when there is plenty within most crudes without additional cracking. Is this energy efficient or is it just Greenwash and an attempt to get around the decisions of politicians who think we can just stop using oil? Surely we need efficient methods of removing CO2 from the atmosphere and reducing the huge quanties we release in?
Indeed.

We're still going to have lots of petrol for our cars for decades.

We have a shortage of renewable energy so we won't be funnelling bucket loads into making eFuels that consumers can't afford while also increasing their energy bills.

Towns are banning all forms of combustion.

Now to this article: Why did Stellantis feel the need to run some PR about a fuel they know their consumer base could never afford, can never exist in the volumes required and can be poured into absolutely any ICE today and run perfectly fine?

What possible motive could a business that focuses on a consumer demographic that is years away from being able to switch to EV in publishing an article that makes those customers think Stellantis are true working man heroes? biggrin

All this article really tells us is that Stellantis believe their customers are thick as mince and will suck up any old guff. biggrin

StuE39

714 posts

147 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Great news to read today.

We’re going to need a pragmatic and multi-disciplinary approach. The whole EV vs ICE bores me. Carbon neutral fuels will work for those who want to drive ICE cars or do longer journeys. EV will work for those who prefer driving EV and do shorter journeys than the people above. Win win.

DonkeyApple

70,316 posts

199 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
StuE39 said:
Great news to read today.

We’re going to need a pragmatic and multi-disciplinary approach. The whole EV vs ICE bores me. Carbon neutral fuels will work for those who want to drive ICE cars or do longer journeys. EV will work for those who prefer driving EV and do shorter journeys than the people above. Win win.
When you consider the costs involved, it's going to be EVs for the poor and eFuels for the wealthy. Stellantis don't really sell to stuff to wealthy people which is why they even say in the article that they're going 100% EV.

donteatpeople

880 posts

304 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Piston Ted said:
A very sensible and welcome approach indeed.

Of course very shortly the usual EV only/anti E fuel brigade will be along with their crystal balls to educate us all in a condescending manner that it won’t be affordable/possible/pie in the sky/not climate friendly etc etc etc
You don't need a crystal ball, just look at how much electricity is needed for the production of these fuels.

bodhi

14,685 posts

259 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
donteatpeople said:
Piston Ted said:
A very sensible and welcome approach indeed.

Of course very shortly the usual EV only/anti E fuel brigade will be along with their crystal balls to educate us all in a condescending manner that it won’t be affordable/possible/pie in the sky/not climate friendly etc etc etc
You don't need a crystal ball, just look at how much electricity is needed for the production of these fuels.
Given how these things usually work all that energy to produce e-fuels will probably be generated by burning petrol.....

Black S2K

1,921 posts

279 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
donteatpeople said:
Piston Ted said:
A very sensible and welcome approach indeed.

Of course very shortly the usual EV only/anti E fuel brigade will be along with their crystal balls to educate us all in a condescending manner that it won’t be affordable/possible/pie in the sky/not climate friendly etc etc etc
You don't need a crystal ball, just look at how much electricity is needed for the production of these fuels.
Thermodynamix is Rayciss, or something...

Otispunkmeyer

13,819 posts

185 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Stupid not to really.

Why would you put all your eggs in one basket?

DonkeyApple

70,316 posts

199 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
bodhi said:
Given how these things usually work all that energy to produce e-fuels will probably be generated by burning petrol.....
The only source for the amount of carbon that would be needed is coal. wink

But that's what this is really about, getting a carbon credit from burning fossil fuels, diverting the CO2 into a synthetic petrol that's then bought at a high cost and then releases that CO2 into the atmosphere.

Instead of being taxed for releasing CO2 you can now get paid twice for releasing it. It's bloody genius. But the true genius is getting the dumb masses who will be paying for it all to actually support it and get is signed off. It's brilliant.

Dave Hedgehog

16,356 posts

234 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
Even at volume production the cost will be many times that of fossil fuels, so the reality this will be for the odd enthusiast at a track day and the elite so they can keep their V8 3 tonne suv

borat52

585 posts

238 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
DonkeyApple said:
We have a shortage of renewable energy so we won't be funnelling bucket loads into making eFuels that consumers can't afford while also increasing their energy bills.
If nuclear, wind and solar gain abundant adoption then there will be quite of electricity output at off peak times which goes unused at very cheap rates so it's not as completely bonkers an idea as it sounds. Hypothetically if the electricity is free then what would the cost of the efuel be?

My gut instinct is that this and hydrogen production will prove to be a more convenient and more useful storage medium than chemical batteries unless we get a monumental tech breakthrough in batteries.

GT9

9,042 posts

202 months

Monday 24th April 2023
quotequote all
borat52 said:
If nuclear, wind and solar gain abundant adoption then there will be quite of electricity output at off peak times which goes unused at very cheap rates so it's not as completely bonkers an idea as it sounds. Hypothetically if the electricity is free then what would the cost of the efuel be?
Have you quantified yet the amount of 'excess' required to make a meaningful amount of e-fuel?

If and when you do, you'll find that it would take at least twice, possibly three times, today's entire grid supply running continuously throughout the year to power every car in the UK from e-fuel.

The maths is just so far out of whack with the idea that this can be a mainstream offering.