Anyone converted Sportshift to Manual?
Discussion
Given that the Sportshift is a manual box with some hydraulic bits added to perform changes, I wondered if anyone on here has had a go at conversion, or knows anyone who has?
I ask out of genuine interest, given the evident developing desire for manual boxes, any specialist able to develop a good value reversible conversion process may see a great deal of interest.
Having a bit of a dig I found a thread in another forum about someone stateside who had actually done the conversion retaining the original box, though it wasn’t written by the person/s who supposedly had done it.
I asked Mike at BR about it some time ago, he said they could do it, but recommended exchange of the 7-speed SSII box to a used 6-speed manual. I got the impression of some reluctance to start dismantling the SS box as it seems some internal components (selector rods) may require exchange.
Other than that, there would of course be linkages, clutch pedal and circuit, gearstick and surround, and a new upper waterfall without holes, then engine and transmission management and control would have to be taken to the same setup as a normal manual car.
It wouldn’t be cheap, of course, but if it could be sold as a kit, and offered as a fully reversible option with the customer retaining all their sportshift bits, there could be a lot of interest from V8VS and V12VS owners, the latter especially given the value delta between manual and sportshift - the obvious answer of sell sportshift and buy manual isn’t so obvious when the difference is 40k+ and so few exist.
Given that there would be no fundamental changes to the car as the gearbox and clutch would not actually be changing, just how they were actuated would change to become simpler, I don’t think that a recognised professional conversion would put too many future buyers off,
especially if it was fully reversible. After all, AM Works have already offered conversion for the original Vanquish for a while now. It is however horrendously expensive, so with that, perhaps I have just answered my own question
There must be a fair few sportshift owners who have had their ‘keeper’ cars for years, and who don’t want to sell, but could be tempted by a cost effective professional manual conversion which they could easily reverse if at any point they so desired - it would surely benefit future values (though maybe not of the currently rare V12S manuals!), imagine being able to advertise your car as either sportshift or manual..
I ask out of genuine interest, given the evident developing desire for manual boxes, any specialist able to develop a good value reversible conversion process may see a great deal of interest.
Having a bit of a dig I found a thread in another forum about someone stateside who had actually done the conversion retaining the original box, though it wasn’t written by the person/s who supposedly had done it.
I asked Mike at BR about it some time ago, he said they could do it, but recommended exchange of the 7-speed SSII box to a used 6-speed manual. I got the impression of some reluctance to start dismantling the SS box as it seems some internal components (selector rods) may require exchange.
Other than that, there would of course be linkages, clutch pedal and circuit, gearstick and surround, and a new upper waterfall without holes, then engine and transmission management and control would have to be taken to the same setup as a normal manual car.
It wouldn’t be cheap, of course, but if it could be sold as a kit, and offered as a fully reversible option with the customer retaining all their sportshift bits, there could be a lot of interest from V8VS and V12VS owners, the latter especially given the value delta between manual and sportshift - the obvious answer of sell sportshift and buy manual isn’t so obvious when the difference is 40k+ and so few exist.
Given that there would be no fundamental changes to the car as the gearbox and clutch would not actually be changing, just how they were actuated would change to become simpler, I don’t think that a recognised professional conversion would put too many future buyers off,
especially if it was fully reversible. After all, AM Works have already offered conversion for the original Vanquish for a while now. It is however horrendously expensive, so with that, perhaps I have just answered my own question
There must be a fair few sportshift owners who have had their ‘keeper’ cars for years, and who don’t want to sell, but could be tempted by a cost effective professional manual conversion which they could easily reverse if at any point they so desired - it would surely benefit future values (though maybe not of the currently rare V12S manuals!), imagine being able to advertise your car as either sportshift or manual..
Edited by Calinours on Monday 8th May 08:48
I vaguely recall reading something about this a couple of years ago. The bottom line was that Graziano, the gearbox maker, said that it’s not a simple case of swapping the selector mechanism. They’d have to take the gearbox to pieces and rebuild it with different parts (and then you’d have to get the AM parts to make the rest of it work, I suppose).
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/4...
Second edit: Graziano U.K. is in St Neots. May be worth a phone call if you’re keen to find out more.
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/4...
Second edit: Graziano U.K. is in St Neots. May be worth a phone call if you’re keen to find out more.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 8th May 08:57
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 8th May 09:00
BlackWidow13 said:
I vaguely recall reading something about this a couple of years ago. The bottom line was that Graziano, the gearbox maker, said either (can’t quite recall which) it could not be done or that to do it you’d have to replace the sportshift box with a manual one - not really a conversion.
That wasn’t what the thread concluded (though I see you must have re-read it and updated the comment ) the suggestion was that Graziano UK could then (subject to parts) rebuild their own transmission to manual spec fairly cost effectively.The chap who put the Tremec manual in my classic V8 said his company developed the Vanquish’s Tremec automated-manual to manual conversion for works. Maybe I could give him a call to see if he thinks he could offer an option for the Graziano transaxle.
Edited by Calinours on Monday 8th May 09:19
BlackWidow13 said:
I vaguely recall reading something about this a couple of years ago. The bottom line was that Graziano, the gearbox maker, said that it’s not a simple case of swapping the selector mechanism. They’d have to take the gearbox to pieces and rebuild it with different parts (and then you’d have to get the AM parts to make the rest of it work, I suppose).
https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/4...
Second edit: Graziano U.K. is in St Neots. May be worth a phone call if you’re keen to find out more.
Not anymore they’re not, it was all shut down and it’s all done from Italy nowhttps://www.6speedonline.com/forums/aston-martin/4...
Second edit: Graziano U.K. is in St Neots. May be worth a phone call if you’re keen to find out more.
Edited by BlackWidow13 on Monday 8th May 08:57
Edited by BlackWidow13 on Monday 8th May 09:00
This guy might be worth a shout as his website says, although he mainly does BM manual conversions but offers the service to other makes.
Its worth a shout if youre really wanting that:
Here: https://everythingm3s.co.uk/about
Its worth a shout if youre really wanting that:
Here: https://everythingm3s.co.uk/about
I today had an interesting conversation with Graham White, the chap who developed the Vanquish solution for works. I’ve sent him some information about the possible market for a 7 speed dog leg manual conversion for sportshift V8VS and V12VS.
It is likely not his thing as his is a pure mechanical transmission outfit dealing with the older stuff, but, maybe partnering with one of the VH specialist outfits with the required software skills….
He’d obviously need a donor car to develop a solution….
It is likely not his thing as his is a pure mechanical transmission outfit dealing with the older stuff, but, maybe partnering with one of the VH specialist outfits with the required software skills….
He’d obviously need a donor car to develop a solution….
“Donor” suggests that the owner might not get the car back!
I’ve thought about this in the past, which is how I’d come across that thread I dug up and posted.
If what I’ve read so far is correct, AM would have to liaise closely with Graziano, essentially, I suspect, rebuilding the gearbox under Graziano’s direction. Then build the required AM parts around the rebuilt gearbox.
I think one would have to be a brave owner to put one’s car up as the guinea pig for this. Besides the potential open ended cost (for which there might, I suppose, be some financial help from AM if you’re the guinea pig) there is the chance that it might not work and all have to be undone, or that it works-ish.
I wonder whether it would be a less uncertain and less experimental route simply to take out the SS box and put in a new manual box, then work from there.
Interesting idea though. ATM the manuals seem to have a roughly £20k premium (give or take) over a SS car, so the economic break even point is clear.
ETA: Astonbits.com have a used 7s SS gearbox at the moment, for 9.9k incl VAT. That is said to be 50% of AM’s list prices. So the economics of a swap look poor.
I’ve thought about this in the past, which is how I’d come across that thread I dug up and posted.
If what I’ve read so far is correct, AM would have to liaise closely with Graziano, essentially, I suspect, rebuilding the gearbox under Graziano’s direction. Then build the required AM parts around the rebuilt gearbox.
I think one would have to be a brave owner to put one’s car up as the guinea pig for this. Besides the potential open ended cost (for which there might, I suppose, be some financial help from AM if you’re the guinea pig) there is the chance that it might not work and all have to be undone, or that it works-ish.
I wonder whether it would be a less uncertain and less experimental route simply to take out the SS box and put in a new manual box, then work from there.
Interesting idea though. ATM the manuals seem to have a roughly £20k premium (give or take) over a SS car, so the economic break even point is clear.
ETA: Astonbits.com have a used 7s SS gearbox at the moment, for 9.9k incl VAT. That is said to be 50% of AM’s list prices. So the economics of a swap look poor.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 8th May 14:43
I would reckon a proper transmission specialist, once they have worked out a procedure for what to do, could open up the ‘box, fit the right bits and put it back together again easy enough, maybe even supplying some of the bits needed to connect linkages and stick. Maybe £3-5k all in for that bit - the number is based on the likely inflated quoted number from Graziano UK in USD 3 years ago.
Out of interest, I had a look at the list of main dealer used VH V8 Vantage cars for sale.
11 Coupes of which only 2 are manual.
5 Roadsters of which only 1 is manual.
With so few manuals, it is not easy to judge what a manual premium might be.
There are two 2016 Coupes;
Manual ...... 39,000 miles £54,000.
Auto ........... 29,000 miles £55,000.
Not sure what that tells us, but perhaps the premium is not as much as thought, in which case changing cars might be better than modifying a gearchange.
With the Newport Pagnell auto to manual modification, I think that has become a recognised and well known improvement. Perhaps difficulties might be encountered when selling a VH car, which was Sportshift when it left the factory, but somehow later become manual. If a main dealer were to sell such a car, they would probably still describe it as Auto, because they now get their used car data from the build sheet records.
I think I recall a previous mention about Graziano not selling individual parts for their gearboxes.
Edited by Jon39 on Monday 8th May 20:08
I appreciate some would prefer the manual with a stick but I’m perfectly happy with my SSIII automated manual V12VSR which I have owned since 2015.
I had the opportunity to purchase the 7 speed stick shift at the time they were released and at one point considered part exchanging my car but didn’t.
The NP Vanquish has never been available new with a stick so here the conversation makes sense but even though the V12 Vantage S 7 speed manual is rare, they were made new and it is still possible to find one, probably a better bet for those preferring this model than to start on a costly conversion with an uncertain outcome.
I had the opportunity to purchase the 7 speed stick shift at the time they were released and at one point considered part exchanging my car but didn’t.
The NP Vanquish has never been available new with a stick so here the conversation makes sense but even though the V12 Vantage S 7 speed manual is rare, they were made new and it is still possible to find one, probably a better bet for those preferring this model than to start on a costly conversion with an uncertain outcome.
I have done a manual to auto swap - which even on a race car was a bit of a ball ache. Quite a while ago but its a fair amount of work. The gearbox was done by the guys at Graziano ( I was up there all the time as the diffs may as well been made of cheese) and as already said, as it has a different casing. I did have the tooling to strip the gearbox down but there may be some selector differences as well.
I think you need a new torque tube as well as the auto has a speed sensor in it - though my memory may be wrong.. Wiring loom also a PITA, having to drop the rear subframe to clip it all in. Its certainly doable, just depends on if you have a ramp and access to all the bits!
I think you need a new torque tube as well as the auto has a speed sensor in it - though my memory may be wrong.. Wiring loom also a PITA, having to drop the rear subframe to clip it all in. Its certainly doable, just depends on if you have a ramp and access to all the bits!
No doubt manual to automated manual would be much more of a challenge. In addition to the internals changes and a raft of instrumentation, there’s going to be additional wiring, logic, controllers and the engine management interface, all before machining the transmission to allow installation of all the hydraulic systems, which then need wiring, pumps, reservoirs, all extending to the clutch circuit. I salute anyone successfully doing that.
But the other way? I’m not so sure. Instead of adding significant complexity, always a huge challenge, it would be significantly simplifying exactly the same transmission and clutch. Mechanically, apart from splitting the transmission to swap a handful of selector components (probably a real challenge done once, but a specialist following an established process, with fabricators machining any required bits no longer available through OEM, I don’t think so), the other stuff would not be considered a challenge, ie fit 3rd pedal and master, swap out the sportshift’s cubby centre console thing for the section in the manual car, swap the upper waterfall for one without buttons. Then it’s linkages, stick, trim. All those bits would be readily available if perhaps expensive direct from AML.
A bit of specialism would be required around the software to get a modified car to the same standard as the factory manual V12S, as is mentioned in the thread, however there will be people in UK with the skills, access and/or contacts to update the engine controller, the TCM and any interface would I presume become redundant and go in the basket of parts required for reconversion.
It really cannot be that difficult based on the fact that BR offered to convert mine, based on a straight swap from my 7 speed sportshift to a 6 speed manual they had for roughly net 10k not long back. I declined as what I really fancied was owning something quite unique, what could have been the only n/a V8 with a 7 speed dog leg manual, unless anyone has heard of another?)
But the other way? I’m not so sure. Instead of adding significant complexity, always a huge challenge, it would be significantly simplifying exactly the same transmission and clutch. Mechanically, apart from splitting the transmission to swap a handful of selector components (probably a real challenge done once, but a specialist following an established process, with fabricators machining any required bits no longer available through OEM, I don’t think so), the other stuff would not be considered a challenge, ie fit 3rd pedal and master, swap out the sportshift’s cubby centre console thing for the section in the manual car, swap the upper waterfall for one without buttons. Then it’s linkages, stick, trim. All those bits would be readily available if perhaps expensive direct from AML.
A bit of specialism would be required around the software to get a modified car to the same standard as the factory manual V12S, as is mentioned in the thread, however there will be people in UK with the skills, access and/or contacts to update the engine controller, the TCM and any interface would I presume become redundant and go in the basket of parts required for reconversion.
It really cannot be that difficult based on the fact that BR offered to convert mine, based on a straight swap from my 7 speed sportshift to a 6 speed manual they had for roughly net 10k not long back. I declined as what I really fancied was owning something quite unique, what could have been the only n/a V8 with a 7 speed dog leg manual, unless anyone has heard of another?)
To be fair I think the premium for the 7spd over SSIII is in the region of £25k (+/- £5k), however as ALL 7spds are MY2017-18 so that in itself adds a further premium over <= MY2016 cars, which were all SSIII. The very very earliest built 7spds were delivered from around Oct 2016 so a handful may have been registered then (they were of course MY2017), but many people, myself included waited until the new year in 2017 to register it for Spring, or in my case actually on 1st Jan!
Right now as an example, there are only 4x 2017 V12VS's for sale on official AM Used site and all of them are manual.
I strongly suspect that the majority of MY2017 cars are in fact manuals as by then the car was long in the tooth and realistically only hard core enthusiasts were placing orders for a new car and the manual in a na V12 was quite a USP at that point. Who else in 2017 was still making such a combo at anything under hypercar prices?
Add on to that the finale refinements that came with MY2017 cars such as AMi III or Sport Plus Pack and the fact that a fair chunk of these cars have since had the AMR Powerkit fitted or were AMR versions from the offset and you readily are into the reality of them costing £40k+ more, but it is the combination of factors that add up to the overall premium.
I echo what has been said above too, that a conversion would never sell for as much as the real thing, so likely to only realise maybe a £10-15k premium, so that is likely the opportunity cost / spend to make it worthwhile. Of course for some people they will have their dream spec in a SSIII car which maybe otherwise be hard or impossible to find in another 7spd manual, so in that respect the cost making sense may not come into the thinking of undertaking a conversion.
For most people however the sensible option would simply be to buy a factory original 7spd.
Right now as an example, there are only 4x 2017 V12VS's for sale on official AM Used site and all of them are manual.
I strongly suspect that the majority of MY2017 cars are in fact manuals as by then the car was long in the tooth and realistically only hard core enthusiasts were placing orders for a new car and the manual in a na V12 was quite a USP at that point. Who else in 2017 was still making such a combo at anything under hypercar prices?
Add on to that the finale refinements that came with MY2017 cars such as AMi III or Sport Plus Pack and the fact that a fair chunk of these cars have since had the AMR Powerkit fitted or were AMR versions from the offset and you readily are into the reality of them costing £40k+ more, but it is the combination of factors that add up to the overall premium.
I echo what has been said above too, that a conversion would never sell for as much as the real thing, so likely to only realise maybe a £10-15k premium, so that is likely the opportunity cost / spend to make it worthwhile. Of course for some people they will have their dream spec in a SSIII car which maybe otherwise be hard or impossible to find in another 7spd manual, so in that respect the cost making sense may not come into the thinking of undertaking a conversion.
For most people however the sensible option would simply be to buy a factory original 7spd.
Calinours said:
.. something quite unique, what could have been the only n/a V8 with a 7 speed dog leg manual
What is the point though?
I sometimes find that I am cruising in 4th gear (capable of 130mph) and had overlooked changing up to 5th or 6th gear.
Having a 7th gear is not even any good for top trumps in the pub either.
The Mercedes drivers at the bar can top that, with their 9 gears (used for imperceptible gear changes).
Dewi 2 said:
What is the point though?
I sometimes find that I am cruising in 4th gear (capable of 130mph) and had overlooked changing up to 5th or 6th gear.
Having a 7th gear is not even any good for top trumps in the pub either.
The Mercedes drivers at the bar can top that, with their 9 gears (used for imperceptible gear changes).
If you are just concerned with having the extra legs of the 7th gear on a motorway cruise, then this is NOT the gearbox for you.
AdamV12V said:
Dewi 2 said:
What is the point though?
I sometimes find that I am cruising in 4th gear (capable of 130mph) and had overlooked changing up to 5th or 6th gear.
Having a 7th gear is not even any good for top trumps in the pub either.
The Mercedes drivers at the bar can top that, with their 9 gears (used for imperceptible gear changes).
If you are just concerned with having the extra legs of the 7th gear on a motorway cruise, then this is NOT the gearbox for you.
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