Not seeking deportation

[Oliver Hardy]

Been watching real CSI on BBC2 where they investigated a rape by two Asian males. One of them was a failed asylum seeker but immigration was not seeking deportation because he is from Iran, question here is if he can not be deported due to where he is from how come he has failed in an asylum application?

[CraigyMc]

Oliver Hardy said:

Been watching real CSI on BBC2 where they investigated a rape by two Asian males. One of them was a failed asylum seeker but immigration was not seeking deportation because he is from Iran, question here is if he can not be deported due to where he is from how come he has failed in an asylum application?

It's not so much that he's from Iran. Even in Iran he'd be a refugee, he's Kurdish and their homeland is a dangerous part of what's now northern Iraq. It's a warzone. It's not like he can get a passport or documents, Kurdistan doesn't have a functional government to issue them.
It's a shame the program didn't explain this.

Moot point for the moment as he's in prison anyway.

[bongtom]

Human rights, innit.

[CraigyMc]

bongtom said:

Human rights, innit.

Yes

[Oliver Hardy]

CraigyMc said:

Oliver Hardy said:

Been watching real CSI on BBC2 where they investigated a rape by two Asian males. One of them was a failed asylum seeker but immigration was not seeking deportation because he is from Iran, question here is if he can not be deported due to where he is from how come he has failed in an asylum application?

It's not so much that he's from Iran. Even in Iran he'd be a refugee, he's Kurdish and their homeland is a dangerous part of what's now northern Iraq. It's a warzone. It's not like he can get a passport or documents, Kurdistan doesn't have a functional government to issue them.
It's a shame the program didn't explain this.

Moot point for the moment as he's in prison anyway.

I get that, but I don't get why he was refused refuge status? Although he is a Kurd their is not such country so he is Iraqi, (Edit: Iranian not Iraqi).

If people like him commit crimes, especially serious crime like rape they should just get deported, danger to his life or not, he is a danger to people here, but that is off topic I guess.

Edited by Oliver Hardy on Thursday 18th May 11:48

[E63eeeeee...]

Oliver Hardy said:

CraigyMc said:

Oliver Hardy said:

Been watching real CSI on BBC2 where they investigated a rape by two Asian males. One of them was a failed asylum seeker but immigration was not seeking deportation because he is from Iran, question here is if he can not be deported due to where he is from how come he has failed in an asylum application?

It's not so much that he's from Iran. Even in Iran he'd be a refugee, he's Kurdish and their homeland is a dangerous part of what's now northern Iraq. It's a warzone. It's not like he can get a passport or documents, Kurdistan doesn't have a functional government to issue them.
It's a shame the program didn't explain this.

Moot point for the moment as he's in prison anyway.

I get that, but I don't get why he was refused refuge status? Although he is a Kurd their is not such country so he is Iraqi.

If people like him commit crimes, especially serious crime like rape they should just get deported, danger to his life or not, he is a danger to people here, but that is off topic I guess.

There's a gap between qualifying for recognition as a refugee and it being safe or possible to return someone to their country of origin. The Refugee Convention rules are quite specific - you can look them up - and don't cover all the scenarios that might frustrate a return. Two of those are that the receiving country won't accept them back, and as mentioned above that it's not safe to return them e.g. it's a warzone or there's no viable travel route. Remember that it's not only the safety of the migrant that has to be considered but primarily the safety of the escorts. If they don't want to return, it's not like you can just give them a ticket and drop them off at the airport.

[Terminator X]

He did well to travel from there all the way to the UK

TX.

[E63eeeeee...]

Terminator X said:

He did well to travel from there all the way to the UK

TX.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you think the UK govt should pay people smugglers to send failed asylum seekers back to Northern Iraq by irregular routes? If so, I can see a couple of flaws in that plan.

[Dingu]

E63eeeeee... said:

Terminator X said:

He did well to travel from there all the way to the UK

TX.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you think the UK govt should pay people smugglers to send failed asylum seekers back to Northern Iraq by irregular routes? If so, I can see a couple of flaws in that plan.

I don’t think he put much thought into it.

[Oliver Hardy]

E63eeeeee... said:

Terminator X said:

He did well to travel from there all the way to the UK

TX.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you think the UK govt should pay people smugglers to send failed asylum seekers back to Northern Iraq by irregular routes? If so, I can see a couple of flaws in that plan.

There are flights from London to Iran

[E63eeeeee...]

Oliver Hardy said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Terminator X said:

He did well to travel from there all the way to the UK

TX.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you think the UK govt should pay people smugglers to send failed asylum seekers back to Northern Iraq by irregular routes? If so, I can see a couple of flaws in that plan.

There are flights from London to Iran

And then do the Iranians take him the rest of the way? Plus, if he's not actually Iranian but is an Iraqi Kurd the Iranians have no reason to accept responsibility for him.

[CraigyMc]

Oliver Hardy said:

CraigyMc said:

Oliver Hardy said:

Been watching real CSI on BBC2 where they investigated a rape by two Asian males. One of them was a failed asylum seeker but immigration was not seeking deportation because he is from Iran, question here is if he can not be deported due to where he is from how come he has failed in an asylum application?

It's not so much that he's from Iran. Even in Iran he'd be a refugee, he's Kurdish and their homeland is a dangerous part of what's now northern Iraq. It's a warzone. It's not like he can get a passport or documents, Kurdistan doesn't have a functional government to issue them.
It's a shame the program didn't explain this.

Moot point for the moment as he's in prison anyway.

I get that, but I don't get why he was refused refuge status? Although he is a Kurd their is not such country so he is Iraqi, (Edit: Iranian not Iraqi).

If people like him commit crimes, especially serious crime like rape they should just get deported, danger to his life or not, he is a danger to people here, but that is off topic I guess.

If I'm honest, I don't think you have thought this through.

First things first, being deported shouldn't be automatic for foreign criminals - otherwise you'd be handing the foreign criminal freedom for criminal actions in the UK as long as they leave. That would bring about unwanted side effects. People would come here to commit crimes and knowing they could then hand themselves in to the police to be extradited back to their originating country at UK cost. If they carried out a robbery, they could simply come here, gain the goods/money or whatever, courier it back to their original country then go back and live on the proceeds.
Honest question: how should this work? Rapists are set free as long as they are not in the UK any more? Gang criminals? Hit men?
I'd genuinely like to know how you think this would work - can you explain?

Second thing, on the "failed asylum seeker" part - you cannot deport people into a warzone, whether they are criminals or not.
The UK is a signatory of https://www.unhcr.org/uk/about-unhcr/who-we-are/19... - doing so would break UK law.
If you want that law to be ignored or repealed, it would require UK forces to take them into the warzone (risking UK military lives) in order to put the deportees into a situation where they are likely to be killed straight away; this is effectively a death sentence carried out by UK military staff, which they should refuse to do because it breaks other conventions.
How would you do this?

[Oliver Hardy]

CraigyMc said:

Oliver Hardy said:

CraigyMc said:

Oliver Hardy said:

Been watching real CSI on BBC2 where they investigated a rape by two Asian males. One of them was a failed asylum seeker but immigration was not seeking deportation because he is from Iran, question here is if he can not be deported due to where he is from how come he has failed in an asylum application?

It's not so much that he's from Iran. Even in Iran he'd be a refugee, he's Kurdish and their homeland is a dangerous part of what's now northern Iraq. It's a warzone. It's not like he can get a passport or documents, Kurdistan doesn't have a functional government to issue them.
It's a shame the program didn't explain this.

Moot point for the moment as he's in prison anyway.

I get that, but I don't get why he was refused refuge status? Although he is a Kurd their is not such country so he is Iraqi, (Edit: Iranian not Iraqi).

If people like him commit crimes, especially serious crime like rape they should just get deported, danger to his life or not, he is a danger to people here, but that is off topic I guess.

If I'm honest, I don't think you have thought this through.

First things first, being deported shouldn't be automatic for foreign criminals - otherwise you'd be handing the foreign criminal freedom for criminal actions in the UK as long as they leave. That would bring about unwanted side effects. People would come here to commit crimes and knowing they could then hand themselves in to the police to be extradited back to their originating country at UK cost. If they carried out a robbery, they could simply come here, gain the goods/money or whatever, courier it back to their original country then go back and live on the proceeds.
Honest question: how should this work? Rapists are set free as long as they are not in the UK any more? Gang criminals? Hit men?
I'd genuinely like to know how you think this would work - can you explain?

Second thing, on the "failed asylum seeker" part - you cannot deport people into a warzone, whether they are criminals or not.
The UK is a signatory of https://www.unhcr.org/uk/about-unhcr/who-we-are/19... - doing so would break UK law.
If you want that law to be ignored or repealed, it would require UK forces to take them into the warzone (risking UK military lives) in order to put the deportees into a situation where they are likely to be killed straight away; this is effectively a death sentence carried out by UK military staff, which they should refuse to do because it breaks other conventions.
How would you do this?

Why can they not get deported after serving their sentence.?

Secondly who cares if they get killed upon their return to their original country, they shouldn't commit crime?

I know it is not allowed under law but it should be,

[E63eeeeee...]

Capital punishment by proxy is still capital punishment. And two sentences for the same crime is unreasonable.

I'd imagine they would look at deportation after the sentence, depending on how the situation over there pans out. The judge might also have taken other factors into account, including how long he had been in the UK and what age he was on arrival - there's essentially a point where he's our problem if he was mostly formed in the UK. There's quite a lot that goes into these decisions.

[Oliver Hardy]

E63eeeeee... said:

Capital punishment by proxy is still capital punishment. And two sentences for the same crime is unreasonable.

I'd imagine they would look at deportation after the sentence, depending on how the situation over there pans out. The judge might also have taken other factors into account, including how long he had been in the UK and what age he was on arrival - there's essentially a point where he's our problem if he was mostly formed in the UK. There's quite a lot that goes into these decisions.

How, your taking away a privilege, person is free to apply for asylum elsewhere. If they do get prosecuted in their own country it is unlikely to be for the same crime

If someone gets convicted of killing someone by dangerous driving you think it is unreasonable to jail someone and take away their licence for example

Serving a sentence in one country does not stop you from being prosecuted in another country also.

I think I am right in saying in the USA# you can be prosecuted under state law and federal law for the same crime

[Grumps.]

E63eeeeee... said:

Oliver Hardy said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Terminator X said:

He did well to travel from there all the way to the UK

TX.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you think the UK govt should pay people smugglers to send failed asylum seekers back to Northern Iraq by irregular routes? If so, I can see a couple of flaws in that plan.

There are flights from London to Iran

And then do the Iranians take him the rest of the way? Plus, if he's not actually Iranian but is an Iraqi Kurd the Iranians have no reason to accept responsibility for him.

Why should we?

[E63eeeeee...]

Grumps. said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Oliver Hardy said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Terminator X said:

He did well to travel from there all the way to the UK

TX.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. Do you think the UK govt should pay people smugglers to send failed asylum seekers back to Northern Iraq by irregular routes? If so, I can see a couple of flaws in that plan.

There are flights from London to Iran

And then do the Iranians take him the rest of the way? Plus, if he's not actually Iranian but is an Iraqi Kurd the Iranians have no reason to accept responsibility for him.

Why should we?

Because he's here. If it was the other way around we wouldn't take responsibility for him from Iran. There's no practical alternative to the country that you're in being the one that sorts out your status.

[E63eeeeee...]

Oliver Hardy said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Capital punishment by proxy is still capital punishment. And two sentences for the same crime is unreasonable.

I'd imagine they would look at deportation after the sentence, depending on how the situation over there pans out. The judge might also have taken other factors into account, including how long he had been in the UK and what age he was on arrival - there's essentially a point where he's our problem if he was mostly formed in the UK. There's quite a lot that goes into these decisions.

How, your taking away a privilege, person is free to apply for asylum elsewhere. If they do get prosecuted in their own country it is unlikely to be for the same crime

If someone gets convicted of killing someone by dangerous driving you think it is unreasonable to jail someone and take away their licence for example

Serving a sentence in one country does not stop you from being prosecuted in another country also.

I think I am right in saying in the USA# you can be prosecuted under state law and federal law for the same crime

Sorry, none of that makes any sense to me as part of this discussion. What are you asking/ suggesting here?

[Oliver Hardy]

E63eeeeee... said:

Oliver Hardy said:

E63eeeeee... said:

Capital punishment by proxy is still capital punishment. And two sentences for the same crime is unreasonable.

I'd imagine they would look at deportation after the sentence, depending on how the situation over there pans out. The judge might also have taken other factors into account, including how long he had been in the UK and what age he was on arrival - there's essentially a point where he's our problem if he was mostly formed in the UK. There's quite a lot that goes into these decisions.

How, your taking away a privilege, person is free to apply for asylum elsewhere. If they do get prosecuted in their own country it is unlikely to be for the same crime

If someone gets convicted of killing someone by dangerous driving you think it is unreasonable to jail someone and take away their licence for example

Serving a sentence in one country does not stop you from being prosecuted in another country also.

I think I am right in saying in the USA# you can be prosecuted under state law and federal law for the same crime

Sorry, none of that makes any sense to me as part of this discussion. What are you asking/ suggesting here?

It is nothing new to be prosecuted and punished in one country then another, or even in the same country. The notion that returning someone to their country of origin is some how double punishment makes no sense.

[E63eeeeee...]

Oliver Hardy said:

It is nothing new to be prosecuted and punished in one country then another, or even in the same country. The notion that returning someone to their country of origin is some how double punishment makes no sense.

That wasn't the concern. The objection was to sending them back to somewhere they are likely to be killed, either by the state or because it's a warzone. Deportation can be included in the sentence or not, apparently in this case it wasn't. There will have been reasons for that. On release they can also be considered for removal if there's somewhere they can be sensibly and safely be removed to.