Performance \ motorsport engine failure solicitor
Discussion
I can't help with your specific question about solicitor recommendations other than I would have thought finding someone with experience of consumer law and how it applies to motorsport/engines would be needed. It will be very hard to work out what the appropriate fitness for purpose test is. Most if not all motorsport engine builders I have used explicitly state that there is no warranty of any kind for engines used in a motorsport environment. Whether that is at odds with CRA or not I have no idea.
As someone who is interested in the subject (and has had a few engines go pop when they shouldn't have done), I'd be very interested to see how you get on if you are able to share progress.
Hope you get a good resolution.
Bert
PS I have seen a "normal" settlement where the engine builder does a re-rebuild for the cost of the parts only when there is a dispute of this nature. Might not feel the right outcome, but might be a better solution than lawyers (cost) and the prospect of whether you'd win or not.
As someone who is interested in the subject (and has had a few engines go pop when they shouldn't have done), I'd be very interested to see how you get on if you are able to share progress.
Hope you get a good resolution.
Bert
PS I have seen a "normal" settlement where the engine builder does a re-rebuild for the cost of the parts only when there is a dispute of this nature. Might not feel the right outcome, but might be a better solution than lawyers (cost) and the prospect of whether you'd win or not.
ad_p said:
So to my question: is this something that a local solicitor with consumer law experience would be able to handle, or would I be better off finding some sort of specialist solicitor and if so, what would I be looking for?
Fundamental questions:How much £ is at stake here?
How did you choose your engine builder?
What does you contract with the engine builder say?
Who was the engineer who did your independent report?
Is that engineer familiar with the way reports must be written to be any use as evidence in court?
Would that engineer be willing/able to appear in court for you?
OverSteery said:
My experience of local lawyers means I would never consider one again for anything other than very straight forward work / bread and butter legal work..
I can see clear challenges with claiming for a competition engine...
surely it is a case of identifying what work was to be completed. This should be part of the initial quote, plus records being kept of whatever else was uncovered during the build and the OP agreed to be repaired.I can see clear challenges with claiming for a competition engine...
Then it's a question of analysing the broken engine and identifying the work has been completed and is of a satisfactory standard for its intended use. Bearing in mind that the engine was always going to be used for competition and not a road engine.
The OP will need to have some evidence of the care he took with the engine as per the builders instructions or just good engineering principles. like running it in etc.
Then its a case of establishing that the fault was not caused by the driver, but by poor engineering.
I suspect that as the engine didn't go pop on start up, its something like a poorly machined crank, or wrong spec bearing lunching itself after a short time of use.
I think it's absolutely within the realms of contract law, but finding someone to use may be difficult. Having said that, there are some lawyers offering services in the MUK magazine for driving transgressions etc. So they maybe a good start to at least find someone who can take it on.
Additionally the courts nearly always look favourably on the plaintiff in contract matters when its private v LTD
I would look for a Barrister who may be able to give you better advice, if they have dealt with such matters in Court
Have a look on
https://www.clerksroom.com/
Have a look on
https://www.clerksroom.com/
I'm not an expert in this area at all, but am just thinking about how they might challenge the claim to a judge not having any background in motorsports. It would be useful to get ahead of those potential issues when preparing the claim. I'm assuming that the engine wasn't 'all new' and that at least the bottom end was used, which complicates the implied warranty side of things.
- What failed?
If the build comprised upgrading a used engine, then who supplied the engine? Was it a new or used part that failed? Were problems with the assembly to do with the new parts, or integrating new parts with used parts? Were any issues brought to the OP's attention during the build?
- Did it pass the builder's inspection and verification processes?
Did the builder even have processes? What records were kept?
- Did OP use the engine properly?
How much motorsports training has OP undertaken? Did the training cover the sort of things that might have been a factor, such as warmup, cooldown, and fluids? How many times has OP engaged in motorsport? What is a normal rebuild interval in motorsports? What advice did the builder provide on proper use of the engine? Does the OP have receipts (e.g. for fluids) proving that advice was followed? What were OPs processes for checking fluids during an event? What fluids did the OP use?
- Was the power at the top end of what was achievable for that engine, or was some headroom left? Did OP ask the builder to tune to a higher power than usual?
- Did the builder offer optional extras for reliability, that the OP turned down?
Remember, civil claims are based on a lower balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt, so the general character and attitude of each party, combined with the precision and timing of their statements, can be quite influential in revealing who was likely at fault (if it comes to a hearing).
- What failed?
If the build comprised upgrading a used engine, then who supplied the engine? Was it a new or used part that failed? Were problems with the assembly to do with the new parts, or integrating new parts with used parts? Were any issues brought to the OP's attention during the build?
- Did it pass the builder's inspection and verification processes?
Did the builder even have processes? What records were kept?
- Did OP use the engine properly?
How much motorsports training has OP undertaken? Did the training cover the sort of things that might have been a factor, such as warmup, cooldown, and fluids? How many times has OP engaged in motorsport? What is a normal rebuild interval in motorsports? What advice did the builder provide on proper use of the engine? Does the OP have receipts (e.g. for fluids) proving that advice was followed? What were OPs processes for checking fluids during an event? What fluids did the OP use?
- Was the power at the top end of what was achievable for that engine, or was some headroom left? Did OP ask the builder to tune to a higher power than usual?
- Did the builder offer optional extras for reliability, that the OP turned down?
Remember, civil claims are based on a lower balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt, so the general character and attitude of each party, combined with the precision and timing of their statements, can be quite influential in revealing who was likely at fault (if it comes to a hearing).
I do find it odd that people ask questions and then when others want to fill in the gaps, they don't want to discuss it on an open forum.
From my recent experience, Bar Direct Barristers like everything else vary in quality massively.
It's a contract matter so find one who does contract work, not the old " I specialise in everything"
Expect £1000 to £1500 for an opinion based on you having all your paperwork in order that they can read in chronological order, nothing out of date line and nothing missed out. All T+C's etc need to be available.
This gets you the stage where the inevitably say that going to court is a risky proposition because that's what they say.
Or
If less than £10K, do it yourself and subject to it being an honest claim, the most you'll lose is £500 on the £10K but I doubt you'd see much back on professional fees unless the judge is feeling charitable.
From my recent experience, Bar Direct Barristers like everything else vary in quality massively.
It's a contract matter so find one who does contract work, not the old " I specialise in everything"
Expect £1000 to £1500 for an opinion based on you having all your paperwork in order that they can read in chronological order, nothing out of date line and nothing missed out. All T+C's etc need to be available.
This gets you the stage where the inevitably say that going to court is a risky proposition because that's what they say.
Or
If less than £10K, do it yourself and subject to it being an honest claim, the most you'll lose is £500 on the £10K but I doubt you'd see much back on professional fees unless the judge is feeling charitable.
ad_p said:
I believe I have strong evidence for both in the form of the independent report, with additional evidence from my mapper and mechanic.
There's your first big problem in court. Engine builder says: "The engine we built was fine. It's the mapping and the way the engine was used that caused the failure. If there is any claim it should be against the mapper, not us."You were taking quite a risk having the engine built by one person and set up by another. Whenever possible a "one stop shop" is the preferable way forward so it's clear who's at fault if anything goes wrong. As soon as more people are involved it opens a whole can of worms with each blaming the other.
What does your "independent report" say has failed, and why did it fail?
Panamax said:
ad_p said:
I believe I have strong evidence for both in the form of the independent report, with additional evidence from my mapper and mechanic.
There's your first big problem in court. Engine builder says: "The engine we built was fine. It's the mapping and the way the engine was used that caused the failure. If there is any claim it should be against the mapper, not us."You were taking quite a risk having the engine built by one person and set up by another. Whenever possible a "one stop shop" is the preferable way forward so it's clear who's at fault if anything goes wrong. As soon as more people are involved it opens a whole can of worms with each blaming the other.
What does your "independent report" say has failed, and why did it fail?
I think you are going to struggle, tbh. A "built" motor with turbo etc, mapped by someone else, engineer report by someone else, the builder can justifiably state that too much was done outside of his control for him to be solely responsible or responsible at all.
You give the hours it ran on road and track, but how many hours on the dyno, how was the cooling etc. They will push the mapping til it detonates, or the knock sensors go off, what if one was faulty, and they caused something to get hot, or pink etc?
Even if you say you can prove that they did not replace some parts with new or modified parts, how can you prove that is the case? Unless the builder agrees that what you have now, is what he built you, and you can then prove something is not what he says it is, he will just claim someone else changed it after he provided it to you. Its done what, 1000 miles on the road and 45 minutes competiton, could be 30 sprint or hillclimb events!
If there was some fundamental issue with the workmanship, would it have survived the dyno, or road tests, or track time at all? Now, if a specific part failed, that is another issue and could be a claim on the part supplier, but again, too much water under the bridge, maybe?
Depending on how much is involved here, I would be wary of spending too much more on it, unless you are cock sure you have him over a barrel.
BTW, did you have a windage tray of oil sum baffle fitted? If not, did you spec one?
I wish you well with it, but fear you may be onto a loser, tbh.
You give the hours it ran on road and track, but how many hours on the dyno, how was the cooling etc. They will push the mapping til it detonates, or the knock sensors go off, what if one was faulty, and they caused something to get hot, or pink etc?
Even if you say you can prove that they did not replace some parts with new or modified parts, how can you prove that is the case? Unless the builder agrees that what you have now, is what he built you, and you can then prove something is not what he says it is, he will just claim someone else changed it after he provided it to you. Its done what, 1000 miles on the road and 45 minutes competiton, could be 30 sprint or hillclimb events!
If there was some fundamental issue with the workmanship, would it have survived the dyno, or road tests, or track time at all? Now, if a specific part failed, that is another issue and could be a claim on the part supplier, but again, too much water under the bridge, maybe?
Depending on how much is involved here, I would be wary of spending too much more on it, unless you are cock sure you have him over a barrel.
BTW, did you have a windage tray of oil sum baffle fitted? If not, did you spec one?
I wish you well with it, but fear you may be onto a loser, tbh.
Edited by poo at Paul's on Thursday 1st June 16:33
For context:
ad_p said:
Hi all,
I'm after a quick bit of advice about solicitors.
The very short summary of my situation is that I commissioned a performance engine to be built for my road legal hillclimb and sprint car. That engine failed completely after 45 minutes competition use and about 16 hours road use. I have an independent engineers report that concludes that the engine build was inadequate and the workmanship was extremally poor. The original engine builders and their insurance loss adjusters are taking the position that they are not liable for my costs. The amounts involved are above the small claims court limit: it would most likely go to the fast track process.
So to my question: is this something that a local solicitor with consumer law experience would be able to handle, or would I be better off finding some sort of specialist solicitor and if so, what would I be looking for?
Thanks in advance!
I'm after a quick bit of advice about solicitors.
The very short summary of my situation is that I commissioned a performance engine to be built for my road legal hillclimb and sprint car. That engine failed completely after 45 minutes competition use and about 16 hours road use. I have an independent engineers report that concludes that the engine build was inadequate and the workmanship was extremally poor. The original engine builders and their insurance loss adjusters are taking the position that they are not liable for my costs. The amounts involved are above the small claims court limit: it would most likely go to the fast track process.
So to my question: is this something that a local solicitor with consumer law experience would be able to handle, or would I be better off finding some sort of specialist solicitor and if so, what would I be looking for?
Thanks in advance!
Seeing that Toyota didn't cover a stock engine on a 2022 GR86 whilst on a trackday (despite the RTV issues that are prevalent on Toyota's built after 2020).
https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyota-denies-warran...
I doubt the OP will be able to claim as unless it's something fundamental like using stock pistons when forged had been specced and paid for, the engine builder as it's a race engine will likely say it's been mistreated/over revved etc...
https://www.thedrive.com/news/toyota-denies-warran...
I doubt the OP will be able to claim as unless it's something fundamental like using stock pistons when forged had been specced and paid for, the engine builder as it's a race engine will likely say it's been mistreated/over revved etc...
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