Inadvertent Speed Limit
Discussion
Right, so someone conversant with the law can hopefully answer this one. Not something I'm in bother with, but raised some issues in my mind...
So the scene is that near my house is the A1307, a 50mph road which has just had some roadworks start for the next year while they build a roundabout. The 200 or so yards of which have been reduced to 30mph.
At the end of the roadwork is a 50mph sign, restoring the speed limit to what is normal for the road, but then, a few hundred yards after that, the work bods have accidentally put another pair of signs, one either side of the road that states Road Works End and has the NSL speed symbol.
There are no further speed repeaters on this road for 700 yards till you reach the next village and the speed drops to 40mph.
The new "inadvertent" 700 yards of NSL also encapsulates a BP garage, where local plod like to park a camera van from time to time.
I know full well it shouldn't be NSL, I drive the road 4 times a day and it's still signed at 50mph in the opposite direction from the village, past the BP and up to the roadworks.
But what if you didn't know the road? Suppose you accelerated to 60mph, got caught by the plod camera van, which is set to the 50mph actual limit of the road and got a NIP? What if you had no dash cam to prove the inadvertent or accidental speed limit change and the workmen have realised their error and changed the NSL sign to a 50 one by the time the nip arrives. How would you prove you did nothing wrong?!?
So the scene is that near my house is the A1307, a 50mph road which has just had some roadworks start for the next year while they build a roundabout. The 200 or so yards of which have been reduced to 30mph.
At the end of the roadwork is a 50mph sign, restoring the speed limit to what is normal for the road, but then, a few hundred yards after that, the work bods have accidentally put another pair of signs, one either side of the road that states Road Works End and has the NSL speed symbol.
There are no further speed repeaters on this road for 700 yards till you reach the next village and the speed drops to 40mph.
The new "inadvertent" 700 yards of NSL also encapsulates a BP garage, where local plod like to park a camera van from time to time.
I know full well it shouldn't be NSL, I drive the road 4 times a day and it's still signed at 50mph in the opposite direction from the village, past the BP and up to the roadworks.
But what if you didn't know the road? Suppose you accelerated to 60mph, got caught by the plod camera van, which is set to the 50mph actual limit of the road and got a NIP? What if you had no dash cam to prove the inadvertent or accidental speed limit change and the workmen have realised their error and changed the NSL sign to a 50 one by the time the nip arrives. How would you prove you did nothing wrong?!?
A very very long time ago, I had my motorcycle test - and at the end, the instructor asked a few highway code questions - one of which was what the national speed limit sign was.
I answered : 60mph single carriageway, 70mph dual carriageway
He then said : So if you saw this in a town, you'd do 60mph would you?
I answered no, of course not - I guess it meant 30mph in a town.
Does it really mean 60/70 as it usually does? Or does it mean "national speed limit" - which if there were things like street lights - would mean 30mph? (I'm not sure it would ever mean 50mph).
As I'm older, I'm dubious about the point my instructor was making - but it is something that's stuck in my mind and seems relevant here.
I answered : 60mph single carriageway, 70mph dual carriageway
He then said : So if you saw this in a town, you'd do 60mph would you?
I answered no, of course not - I guess it meant 30mph in a town.
Does it really mean 60/70 as it usually does? Or does it mean "national speed limit" - which if there were things like street lights - would mean 30mph? (I'm not sure it would ever mean 50mph).
As I'm older, I'm dubious about the point my instructor was making - but it is something that's stuck in my mind and seems relevant here.
True, the absence of speed signage and NSL normally means 60/70 or whatever is legal for the vehicle you're travelling in where there's no street lights. 30mph in built up areas where lighting is present.
I don't think it would mean 50mph on an unlit. A road between two villages where the road is good and wide enough to do 60.
I don't think it would mean 50mph on an unlit. A road between two villages where the road is good and wide enough to do 60.
davek_964 said:
A very very long time ago, I had my motorcycle test - and at the end, the instructor asked a few highway code questions - one of which was what the national speed limit sign was.
I answered : 60mph single carriageway, 70mph dual carriageway
He then said : So if you saw this in a town, you'd do 60mph would you?
I answered no, of course not - I guess it meant 30mph in a town.
Does it really mean 60/70 as it usually does? Or does it mean "national speed limit" - which if there were things like street lights - would mean 30mph? (I'm not sure it would ever mean 50mph).
As I'm older, I'm dubious about the point my instructor was making - but it is something that's stuck in my mind and seems relevant here.
Coulda, shoulda made him late for his next appointment with a proper answer:I answered : 60mph single carriageway, 70mph dual carriageway
He then said : So if you saw this in a town, you'd do 60mph would you?
I answered no, of course not - I guess it meant 30mph in a town.
Does it really mean 60/70 as it usually does? Or does it mean "national speed limit" - which if there were things like street lights - would mean 30mph? (I'm not sure it would ever mean 50mph).
As I'm older, I'm dubious about the point my instructor was making - but it is something that's stuck in my mind and seems relevant here.
So, we have kicked the can a bit about what NSL means, but nobody yet seems to know what would happen if plod nipped you for 60 in a 50 when the incorrect signage has in fact turned a section of 50 into a 60 and the workmen could, at any time just change the sign and there would be no evidence....
V8C said:
So, we have kicked the can a bit about what NSL means, but nobody yet seems to know what would happen if plod nipped you for 60 in a 50 when the incorrect signage has in fact turned a section of 50 into a 60 and the workmen could, at any time just change the sign and there would be no evidence....
You would need to point out the signage issue and use that as mitigating info…it might need to go to court if an appeal did not work.davek_964 said:
A very very long time ago, I had my motorcycle test - and at the end, the instructor asked a few highway code questions - one of which was what the national speed limit sign was.
I answered : 60mph single carriageway, 70mph dual carriageway
He then said : So if you saw this in a town, you'd do 60mph would you?
I answered no, of course not - I guess it meant 30mph in a town.
Does it really mean 60/70 as it usually does? Or does it mean "national speed limit" - which if there were things like street lights - would mean 30mph? (I'm not sure it would ever mean 50mph).
As I'm older, I'm dubious about the point my instructor was making - but it is something that's stuck in my mind and seems relevant here.
An NSL sign in a road with streetlights means a 60/70 limit, as if the streetlights weren't there. Often found on major A roads which have streetlights at the junctions. I answered : 60mph single carriageway, 70mph dual carriageway
He then said : So if you saw this in a town, you'd do 60mph would you?
I answered no, of course not - I guess it meant 30mph in a town.
Does it really mean 60/70 as it usually does? Or does it mean "national speed limit" - which if there were things like street lights - would mean 30mph? (I'm not sure it would ever mean 50mph).
As I'm older, I'm dubious about the point my instructor was making - but it is something that's stuck in my mind and seems relevant here.
davek_964 said:
As I'm older, I'm dubious about the point my instructor was making - but it is something that's stuck in my mind and seems relevant here.
Maybe trying to establish that you knew not just what the sign meant even if seen in a potentially unfamiliar environment, but whether you also understood that it wouldn't mean you *should* do 60, merely they you *could* if conditions permitted?I guess in theory the workmen doing the job would have had an instruction from the boss(es) to remedy the incorrect signage, which in this day and age was probably alerted to said bosses by electronic written communication and maybe even passed on electronically to the workers getting their hands dirty, which would give a record of the change that one could potentially use if one were able to get hold of it.
Whether one could get hold of such an instruction would probably depend on whether the contractors doing the work were directly employed by the Highway Authority responsible for the road in question (e.g. were either Term Contractors directly instructed by the Highway Authority or were the Highway Authority's workforce themselves, and therefore (IIRC) subject to FOI regulations) or if they were third party contractors (e.g. utilities companies) undertaking emergency remediation work, for example (and therefore less likely to provide information to a random)..
The work would have needed the roadspace booked in with the Highway Authority so they would have contact details of the company undertaking the work, and IIRC a board must be displayed somewhere on site with the Permit number that has been granted to allow the work to take place, so that would be a starting point. Information may also be on (IIRC) www.roadworks.org .
Whether one could get hold of such an instruction would probably depend on whether the contractors doing the work were directly employed by the Highway Authority responsible for the road in question (e.g. were either Term Contractors directly instructed by the Highway Authority or were the Highway Authority's workforce themselves, and therefore (IIRC) subject to FOI regulations) or if they were third party contractors (e.g. utilities companies) undertaking emergency remediation work, for example (and therefore less likely to provide information to a random)..
The work would have needed the roadspace booked in with the Highway Authority so they would have contact details of the company undertaking the work, and IIRC a board must be displayed somewhere on site with the Permit number that has been granted to allow the work to take place, so that would be a starting point. Information may also be on (IIRC) www.roadworks.org .
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