EC261 - Flight delay compensation - Denied claim advice
Discussion
Anyone here have experience in this field and able to advise on if I have a case?
My recent flight was delayed between 3 and 4 hours on a flight over 3500km. I calculate this at £260 compensation per passenger.
The airline (TUI) are using the 'Extraordinary Measures' as a get out stating the following..
"We have investigated your claim for your flight delay of 03 hours and 27 minutes and our delay handling logs show that your flight was delayed reactionary to the previous rotation which had an unaccompanied bag that needed to be offloaded. This was a security issue which unfortunately took the delay over 3 hours. This caused a knock on delay to your flight. So as to help both customers and airlines, the European Commission has recently published draft guidelines as to what amounts to extraordinary circumstances. This list was prepared with the assistance of the various national bodies responsible for regulating the aviation industry across Europe. In this draft, the Commission has intimated that the following would be considered extraordinary circumstances: 8. Security “Removal of unaccompanied baggage due to a serious security concern as imposed by the security regulation.” An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Having investigated into the reasons for the delay to your flight, I can confirm that the circumstances surrounding the delay to your flight are classified as extraordinary circumstances under Regulation 261/2004 of the European Union."
I've challenged this on the basis that offloading a bag is a standard security procedure in aviation and in my opinion doesn't fit the definition of 'Extraordinary' or "Serious Security Concern". Also the fact that the guidance they have quoted is in draft and not yet approved by the EC. Also, even if there was a delay on the previous rotation for an offloaded bag, the delays encountered by this particular aircraft on the previous 4 flights would have very likely resulted in a delay anyway. It's first flight on the day 4 flights before ours was over 4 hours late!
I'm no expert in this field but feel TUI are just trying to fob off in the hope no one decide to pursue it further and just accept their answer. I have logged an appeal via their mediation service AviationADR.
Also, if anyone is able to find this draft guidance they've quoted, please do post a link. I've searched everywhere with no joy!
My recent flight was delayed between 3 and 4 hours on a flight over 3500km. I calculate this at £260 compensation per passenger.
The airline (TUI) are using the 'Extraordinary Measures' as a get out stating the following..
"We have investigated your claim for your flight delay of 03 hours and 27 minutes and our delay handling logs show that your flight was delayed reactionary to the previous rotation which had an unaccompanied bag that needed to be offloaded. This was a security issue which unfortunately took the delay over 3 hours. This caused a knock on delay to your flight. So as to help both customers and airlines, the European Commission has recently published draft guidelines as to what amounts to extraordinary circumstances. This list was prepared with the assistance of the various national bodies responsible for regulating the aviation industry across Europe. In this draft, the Commission has intimated that the following would be considered extraordinary circumstances: 8. Security “Removal of unaccompanied baggage due to a serious security concern as imposed by the security regulation.” An operating air carrier shall not be obliged to pay compensation in accordance with Article 7, if it can prove that the delay is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Having investigated into the reasons for the delay to your flight, I can confirm that the circumstances surrounding the delay to your flight are classified as extraordinary circumstances under Regulation 261/2004 of the European Union."
I've challenged this on the basis that offloading a bag is a standard security procedure in aviation and in my opinion doesn't fit the definition of 'Extraordinary' or "Serious Security Concern". Also the fact that the guidance they have quoted is in draft and not yet approved by the EC. Also, even if there was a delay on the previous rotation for an offloaded bag, the delays encountered by this particular aircraft on the previous 4 flights would have very likely resulted in a delay anyway. It's first flight on the day 4 flights before ours was over 4 hours late!
I'm no expert in this field but feel TUI are just trying to fob off in the hope no one decide to pursue it further and just accept their answer. I have logged an appeal via their mediation service AviationADR.
Also, if anyone is able to find this draft guidance they've quoted, please do post a link. I've searched everywhere with no joy!
Edited by HantsRat on Monday 12th June 21:10
Regulation 261/2004 came into force on February 17th 2005. AFAIK there are no new or outstanding changes.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/conten...
Section 7 deals with the right to compensation.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/eur/2004/261/conten...
Section 7 deals with the right to compensation.
The delay incurred is not an "extraordinary circumstance" by any stretch of the imagination. "TUI states the Commission has intimated" means nothing and is nothing more than a smoke screen.
As you state, the removal of a bag is not an extraordinary event. Furthermore, it shouldn't take 3 hours. In reality, it is a common event. The airline knows where the bag is loaded and they remove it very quickly.
I would send them a notice of action and see what their response is. Assuming it is negative, I would then visit MCOL. Fill out the relevant parts and move forward with filing in small claims court.
What type of aircraft was involved?
As you state, the removal of a bag is not an extraordinary event. Furthermore, it shouldn't take 3 hours. In reality, it is a common event. The airline knows where the bag is loaded and they remove it very quickly.
I would send them a notice of action and see what their response is. Assuming it is negative, I would then visit MCOL. Fill out the relevant parts and move forward with filing in small claims court.
What type of aircraft was involved?
phil squares said:
The delay incurred is not an "extraordinary circumstance" by any stretch of the imagination. "TUI states the Commission has intimated" means nothing and is nothing more than a smoke screen.
As you state, the removal of a bag is not an extraordinary event. Furthermore, it shouldn't take 3 hours. In reality, it is a common event. The airline knows where the bag is loaded and they remove it very quickly.
I would send them a notice of action and see what their response is. Assuming it is negative, I would then visit MCOL. Fill out the relevant parts and move forward with filing in small claims court.
What type of aircraft was involved?
That's the plan - I will appeal via the official remediation first. If this fails I will raise a claim. More than willing to put the effort in on this.As you state, the removal of a bag is not an extraordinary event. Furthermore, it shouldn't take 3 hours. In reality, it is a common event. The airline knows where the bag is loaded and they remove it very quickly.
I would send them a notice of action and see what their response is. Assuming it is negative, I would then visit MCOL. Fill out the relevant parts and move forward with filing in small claims court.
What type of aircraft was involved?
It's a 788 Dreamliner.
Looking at the previous 4 flights on the day prior to ours by the same aircraft, the flight out to us actually had the shortest turnaround. They were already running 4 hours late on the first flight of the day.
MAN > LGW ( Positioning Flight )
Scheduled Take Off: 05:15
Actual: 05:56
Scheduled Arrival: 06:22
Landed: 06:35
LGW – DBV ( Turn Around 2 hr 19 )
Scheduled Take Off: 06:00
Actual: 08:54
Scheduled Arrival: 09:30
Landed: 11:58
DBV – LGW ( Turn around 2 hr 51 )
Scheduled Take Off: 10:55
Actual: 14:49
Scheduled Arrival: 12:50
Landed: 16:19
LGW – SID ( Turn around 2 hr 2 min )
Scheduled Take Off: 14:20
Actual: 18:21
Scheduled Arrival: 18:10
Landed: 21:53
I had similar with wizzair. They ignored, then lied, then ignored some more until their time limit ran out (and they said "no"), I then escalated to the ombudsman who unsurprisingly found in my favour (it was really clear cut, 3.5 hours late).
Their behaviour throughout the process was devious and would put a very large number of people off continuing, which is probably the aim. I suspect your airline are similar. There is no way that offloading a bag took 4 hours, although they could I suppose argue that it took them the extra 30 mins that took them over the limit or whatever, just continue pushing it and escalating it till the ombudsman find in your favour.
Their behaviour throughout the process was devious and would put a very large number of people off continuing, which is probably the aim. I suspect your airline are similar. There is no way that offloading a bag took 4 hours, although they could I suppose argue that it took them the extra 30 mins that took them over the limit or whatever, just continue pushing it and escalating it till the ombudsman find in your favour.
Yes, had the same with Tui in January flight delayed from Jamaica to Gatwick. Claimed some compo but denied as they say it landed 179 minutes late so within the 3 hours. Takeoff was 225 minutes late but pilot gave it the beans on the way over.
Took it further and still got pushed back, some drivel about the previous flight delayed due to drunk passengers. Anyway not looking good.
Took it further and still got pushed back, some drivel about the previous flight delayed due to drunk passengers. Anyway not looking good.
I'm battling a similar issue here - which is still unconcluded.
It seems they have appealed (and been given permission to), so I'm waiting on a Supreme Court date which isn't yet listed. Although the original judgment (Lipton vs. BA City Flyer) was very clear that the crew sickness was an inherent part of the airline business and so wasn't an "unavoidable issue".
The thing I could never find an answer to though, was if the claim was made prior to the appeal being allowed - is it the case that the claim should be considered based on the extant law at the time? What's annoyed me is that they've waited on receipt of my claim (which was valid at the time), then strung it out whilst the PTA was submitted (and subsequently granted) - and then told me to wait.
It seems they have appealed (and been given permission to), so I'm waiting on a Supreme Court date which isn't yet listed. Although the original judgment (Lipton vs. BA City Flyer) was very clear that the crew sickness was an inherent part of the airline business and so wasn't an "unavoidable issue".
The thing I could never find an answer to though, was if the claim was made prior to the appeal being allowed - is it the case that the claim should be considered based on the extant law at the time? What's annoyed me is that they've waited on receipt of my claim (which was valid at the time), then strung it out whilst the PTA was submitted (and subsequently granted) - and then told me to wait.
Edited by Notshortnottall on Thursday 15th June 11:09
phil squares said:
As you state, the removal of a bag is not an extraordinary event. Furthermore, it shouldn't take 3 hours. In reality, it is a common event. The airline knows where the bag is loaded and they remove it very quickly.
The quote from TUI doesn't say offloading took 3 hours. It says the offload took the delay to over 3 hours.And I'm not defending TUI here but removing luggage isn't something that happens " very quickly". They'll know which container the luggage is in but they'll still have to offload the container (and others if its not easily reachable) and then go through and find the item manually. Then repack the container and reload it.
The aircraft will then have missed its departure slot so they will have to negotiate a new departure time wherever ATC can sequence them in to the outbound departures.
So overall not a quick job, though the airline will be trying to do it as quickly as possible because the aircraft sat on the ground is costing them money.
Edited by 48k on Tuesday 13th June 20:21
Only had to claim once, with Jet 2. I thought it was a borderline case, but they just coughed up no argument - check in the post a couple of weeks later.
The lack of competition in the market is really strengthening the hand of the likes of TUi and Ryanair..."tough luck, who else are you going to use?"
The lack of competition in the market is really strengthening the hand of the likes of TUi and Ryanair..."tough luck, who else are you going to use?"
havoc said:
Only had to claim once, with Jet 2. I thought it was a borderline case, but they just coughed up no argument - check in the post a couple of weeks later.
The lack of competition in the market is really strengthening the hand of the likes of TUi and Ryanair..."tough luck, who else are you going to use?"
Jet2, in my fair amount of use of their service for business and holidays, are the exception in the budget market. They look after their staff and have very good loyalty. I know a few employees and they really like the company which is reflected in the service.The lack of competition in the market is really strengthening the hand of the likes of TUi and Ryanair..."tough luck, who else are you going to use?"
I tried an all-inclusive holiday (slightly against my prejudiced judgement) and was slightly amazed at the service. Just little things...
BishBosh said:
Yes, had the same with Tui in January flight delayed from Jamaica to Gatwick. Claimed some compo but denied as they say it landed 179 minutes late so within the 3 hours. Takeoff was 225 minutes late but pilot gave it the beans on the way over.
Took it further and still got pushed back, some drivel about the previous flight delayed due to drunk passengers. Anyway not looking good.
Worth noting it's not touch down time that counts but the time which the doors open at stand. Keep pushing Took it further and still got pushed back, some drivel about the previous flight delayed due to drunk passengers. Anyway not looking good.
vaud said:
havoc said:
Only had to claim once, with Jet 2. I thought it was a borderline case, but they just coughed up no argument - check in the post a couple of weeks later.
The lack of competition in the market is really strengthening the hand of the likes of TUi and Ryanair..."tough luck, who else are you going to use?"
Jet2, in my fair amount of use of their service for business and holidays, are the exception in the budget market. They look after their staff and have very good loyalty. I know a few employees and they really like the company which is reflected in the service.The lack of competition in the market is really strengthening the hand of the likes of TUi and Ryanair..."tough luck, who else are you going to use?"
I tried an all-inclusive holiday (slightly against my prejudiced judgement) and was slightly amazed at the service. Just little things...
Compared to my previous experience with BA I can’t fault them.
Keep on complaining to TUI until you get their deadlock letter or sufficient time has elapsed without them responding. Lodge your complaint with Aviation ADR (that is the body that TUI are signed up with). Their decision is binding on the airline.
Ignore the advice regarding going MCOL without following the dispute resolution process. If you lose the dispute resolution you’re still entitled to go to court - but your chances of winning will be slim imo.
I followed the process with CEDR for a BA claim and it worked well. Be patient.
Note the delay timing is to the gate - not landing.
Ignore the advice regarding going MCOL without following the dispute resolution process. If you lose the dispute resolution you’re still entitled to go to court - but your chances of winning will be slim imo.
I followed the process with CEDR for a BA claim and it worked well. Be patient.
Note the delay timing is to the gate - not landing.
EC261 is a minefield riddled with inconsistencies and interpretations. Like most Laws, they are drafted in somewhat vague wording. It then relies on the courts to set precedent decisions in Case Law (in countries where that is the principle). That is to say the airline (like any business in similar circumstances) will take the opinion in its favour until it's decided one way or another in a court of law. This means you normally need class actions to get the line drawn as individuals won't take the case that far. This does lead to the case for example of a technical delay - part fails, aircraft becomes unserviceable. UK airlines deemed this extraordinary until a case set the precedent and the judges came down on the plaintiff's side. Contrast that with most EU airlines where that local court hasn't passed a judgement and the airlines still stick to extraordinary delay for technical failures.
I know as I worked for several years for a well known UK/EU airline where this became a massively increasing cost. The Law was well intentioned but was a bit of a sledgehammer given airline margins (in most years prior to 22/23). When the ambulance chasers piled on it got out of control so naturally the airlines defended their position. Up to about 2012 virtually no-one actually claimed on it. It's now baked into your ticket price (part of the reason for hugely escalating fares) as it's getting like the NHS, more going out in compo & legal fees than ever.
Interestingly I nearly got stuck in New York trying to get back from Miami a couple of weeks ago. My AA flight (on BA flight no) MIA-JFK was delayed for several hours as the inbound aircraft was stuck in Mexico with a technical problem. That would have meant I'd have missed the last London flight and been stuck in NY overnight. When I researched the options it was clear that in US law you get zero compensation for this circumstance, even if it means an overnight stay. Luckily I managed to switch to a direct flight, although my luggage still went via JFK, arriving 2 days later.
In the OP's case I empathise but as 48K explained, baggage offload can be a trigger for other elements of delay and indeed disrupt multiple other sectors in the same flying day. If the OP feels strongly enough then take it as far as they are willing but it may take a lawsuit to set precedent. It is also clear it is arrival time at gate not departure time (as it should be). I too have been on one that parked at 2:59 after STA.
I know as I worked for several years for a well known UK/EU airline where this became a massively increasing cost. The Law was well intentioned but was a bit of a sledgehammer given airline margins (in most years prior to 22/23). When the ambulance chasers piled on it got out of control so naturally the airlines defended their position. Up to about 2012 virtually no-one actually claimed on it. It's now baked into your ticket price (part of the reason for hugely escalating fares) as it's getting like the NHS, more going out in compo & legal fees than ever.
Interestingly I nearly got stuck in New York trying to get back from Miami a couple of weeks ago. My AA flight (on BA flight no) MIA-JFK was delayed for several hours as the inbound aircraft was stuck in Mexico with a technical problem. That would have meant I'd have missed the last London flight and been stuck in NY overnight. When I researched the options it was clear that in US law you get zero compensation for this circumstance, even if it means an overnight stay. Luckily I managed to switch to a direct flight, although my luggage still went via JFK, arriving 2 days later.
In the OP's case I empathise but as 48K explained, baggage offload can be a trigger for other elements of delay and indeed disrupt multiple other sectors in the same flying day. If the OP feels strongly enough then take it as far as they are willing but it may take a lawsuit to set precedent. It is also clear it is arrival time at gate not departure time (as it should be). I too have been on one that parked at 2:59 after STA.
Edited by Speed 3 on Tuesday 13th June 23:56
Currently taking the orange airline to court - flight cancelled 2 hours before departure, no desk at Schipol so by the time we got through on phone the only flight offered was 2 days later. Put up in hotel, finally when heading to airport 2 days later that flight got cancelled! Got stuffed into a really crappy hotel with no food facility and no local eateries - only supermarket sandwiches that we had to find ourselves.
Orange airline refused compensation for either flight, claiming extraordinary circumstances for both flights. Channel 4 who were running a program about flight issues got Travel Which to contact them, we then got a call from airline saying our EC261 approved and asking bank details, backed up by email confirmation. 4 weeks of chasing, they said they won’t pay as it was a mistake they had approved.
We lost 2 days wages, I was supposed to take my daughter to LHR during my enforced stay in Amsterdam so had to pay a large amount of money for a cab (LHR an hour from home) and airline litigation department fighting tooth and nail to get MCOL hearing stuffed into a block hearing in Luton and away from my local court.
Frankly they are being utter arses
Orange airline refused compensation for either flight, claiming extraordinary circumstances for both flights. Channel 4 who were running a program about flight issues got Travel Which to contact them, we then got a call from airline saying our EC261 approved and asking bank details, backed up by email confirmation. 4 weeks of chasing, they said they won’t pay as it was a mistake they had approved.
We lost 2 days wages, I was supposed to take my daughter to LHR during my enforced stay in Amsterdam so had to pay a large amount of money for a cab (LHR an hour from home) and airline litigation department fighting tooth and nail to get MCOL hearing stuffed into a block hearing in Luton and away from my local court.
Frankly they are being utter arses
EK3vtec said:
Currently taking the orange airline to court
Just remembered a friend had similar with a certain British Airline. They dragged it all the way to court and the judge hauled them over the coals, but all they lost was the compensation fee and £62 for my friend's legal costs....so if all their counsel are in-house and a sunk cost, there's little disincentive for the airlines to clog up the courts...the more cases = more delays = improved cashflow, and the effective penalties are negligible vs the potential gains of not shelling out hundreds of quid per customer.
And as vaud suggests, if they're (almost) all at it, then there's little reputational/competitive disadvantage either.
The advice earlier on was sound about binding dispute resolution. BA for example is signed up for CEDR.
Here’s the list https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-... The ruling is binding on the airline. The other avenue is to use Resolver who I have used once with success.
Here’s the list https://www.caa.co.uk/passengers/resolving-travel-... The ruling is binding on the airline. The other avenue is to use Resolver who I have used once with success.
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