Tiptronic- no one got a good word to say?
Discussion
The only auto I've ever had is on the wifes Jeep.
I've seen a 993 Tiptronic S that I like the look of and I want to arrange a test drive.
A couple of comments have frightened me when it's been suggested that they are tardy and slow to change up/down in particular.
I've just sold my manual Boscter S (facelift model) that was solid but uninspriring. I need my first 911 to be the right experience.
I'm going to find out for myself but i would welcome any experineces from any of you guys who've driven either/both. Cheers.
I've seen a 993 Tiptronic S that I like the look of and I want to arrange a test drive.
A couple of comments have frightened me when it's been suggested that they are tardy and slow to change up/down in particular.
I've just sold my manual Boscter S (facelift model) that was solid but uninspriring. I need my first 911 to be the right experience.
I'm going to find out for myself but i would welcome any experineces from any of you guys who've driven either/both. Cheers.
Lee, you invited my comments by email, so you can hardly say that you haven't had a reply. There's been quite a lot of discussion about Tiptronics on this forum, so you could find out a lot of other views by simply searching under the heading 'Tiptronic'.
It seems to me that the drivers who prefer manuals are much like I was when I was younger - I liked the buzz I got from whizzing up and down the gears, heel-and-toeing, blipping the throttle etc etc - it was fun and made me feel like a racing driver! As I got older and lazier, I enjoyed automatics for the sheer simplicity of driving in heavy traffic - but that was before I ever had a Tiptronic box. Now I reckon I have the best of both worlds - it's calm and lazy when I'm feeling that way, fast and furious when I want it to be.
Anyone on here who can shift gears faster and more smoothly than a Tiptronic box is probably an experienced professional or kidding himself. I suspect that many of the critics have had very little experience of driving a Tiptronic - for some people, their first experience of something so different from their normal way of driving is a bit daunting and they think they know enough to damn a system out of hand.
There's only one way you're ever going to settle this for your own peace of mind and that is to get your hands on a Tiptronic car and spend some time driving it under lots of different conditions. No one can tell you how that will feel - it's a subjective thing. Some guys on this forum hate Tiptronics - I love them. Simple subjective judgement.
Good luck with your choice.
It seems to me that the drivers who prefer manuals are much like I was when I was younger - I liked the buzz I got from whizzing up and down the gears, heel-and-toeing, blipping the throttle etc etc - it was fun and made me feel like a racing driver! As I got older and lazier, I enjoyed automatics for the sheer simplicity of driving in heavy traffic - but that was before I ever had a Tiptronic box. Now I reckon I have the best of both worlds - it's calm and lazy when I'm feeling that way, fast and furious when I want it to be.
Anyone on here who can shift gears faster and more smoothly than a Tiptronic box is probably an experienced professional or kidding himself. I suspect that many of the critics have had very little experience of driving a Tiptronic - for some people, their first experience of something so different from their normal way of driving is a bit daunting and they think they know enough to damn a system out of hand.
There's only one way you're ever going to settle this for your own peace of mind and that is to get your hands on a Tiptronic car and spend some time driving it under lots of different conditions. No one can tell you how that will feel - it's a subjective thing. Some guys on this forum hate Tiptronics - I love them. Simple subjective judgement.
Good luck with your choice.
I don't know about anyone else, but I can't change gear faster than an auto box. What I can do, is change when I want, and though that's not an issue with tiptronic, I can change how I want.
If you are the sort of driver that is looking to squeeze what you can from a bend, no matter how badly you entered it, then manual, with a clutch has to be the way to go.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with an auto box, but in a Porsche, I'd rather go manual.
If you are the sort of driver that is looking to squeeze what you can from a bend, no matter how badly you entered it, then manual, with a clutch has to be the way to go.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with an auto box, but in a Porsche, I'd rather go manual.
Andy,
I have to admit that I haven't 'tracked' a Tiptronic, but I'm still puzzled by your remarks about better control. If you admit that you can't change gear faster than a Tip, what's to stop you changing down in that corner if that's going to give you better control? If you're saying that you'd be riding the clutch or feeding it in with better sensitivity than you'd get from a Tip, I'm surprised. One thing you definitely get with a Tiptronic box is a sensitive matching of engine revs and take up, and very quickly, too!
One point I haven't addressed is the fact that you can have fewer gears with a Tip than a manual - depends which manual and what year of manufacture. With the sort of grunt you get from a 993, extra gears seem to be a bit of overkill for most occasions.
Ken
I have to admit that I haven't 'tracked' a Tiptronic, but I'm still puzzled by your remarks about better control. If you admit that you can't change gear faster than a Tip, what's to stop you changing down in that corner if that's going to give you better control? If you're saying that you'd be riding the clutch or feeding it in with better sensitivity than you'd get from a Tip, I'm surprised. One thing you definitely get with a Tiptronic box is a sensitive matching of engine revs and take up, and very quickly, too!
One point I haven't addressed is the fact that you can have fewer gears with a Tip than a manual - depends which manual and what year of manufacture. With the sort of grunt you get from a 993, extra gears seem to be a bit of overkill for most occasions.
Ken
roygarth said:
I don't have figures for 993 but:
964 C2 Manual 0-60 = 5.0 seconds
964 C2 Tiptronic 0-60 = 6.5 seconds
One reason to avoid Tiptronic.
In the real world, how often do you need to rip your clutch apart doing 5 second 0-60s? On the 993, it's better than 6.5 secs, but I accept it's not officially as quick in accelerating in the fully auto mode. I wonder whether anyone's got figures for it in the manual mode of Tiptronic - i.e. holding the gears to best-power revs? It's not the sort of thing people usually measure, but it would be interesting to find out!
kent993 said:
Andy,
I have to admit that I haven't 'tracked' a Tiptronic, but I'm still puzzled by your remarks about better control. If you admit that you can't change gear faster than a Tip, what's to stop you changing down in that corner if that's going to give you better control? If you're saying that you'd be riding the clutch or feeding it in with better sensitivity than you'd get from a Tip, I'm surprised. One thing you definitely get with a Tiptronic box is a sensitive matching of engine revs and take up, and very quickly, too!
One point I haven't addressed is the fact that you can have fewer gears with a Tip than a manual - depends which manual and what year of manufacture. With the sort of grunt you get from a 993, extra gears seem to be a bit of overkill for most occasions.
Ken
Well if you want you can have your PSM, and your ESP. All I'm saying is that if I change gear mid corner, I'm not having any machine do it for me.
Clearly you have a very good idea of where your right foot is taking you!
Edited to add;
I guess that auto box must sap so much power that you can't get into trouble, changing gear mid corner.
>> Edited by dilbert on Monday 29th August 20:26
I can't argue with that, not having had the experience of trying to do it! I do know that an auto box takes up a certain amount of power - I just wonder sometimes whether most drivers would notice it, in real world conditions. On a track, it may well be different.
Note for Lee: YHM - if it doesn't arrive, email me again and put your new email address into the text (the one I just got had the same address as I used last time!).
Note for Lee: YHM - if it doesn't arrive, email me again and put your new email address into the text (the one I just got had the same address as I used last time!).
I bought a Tip Boxster S before becoming involved socially with a bunch of Porsche owners. I'm constantly slagged by them for my 'Gaytronic' however not one of their Porkers has passed me on a hoon (track excepting...but then we're talking about a GT3 here!). The TIP is brilliant,end of story and makes the Boxster totally viable in real-life terms. Anyone that needs to sneer can do as they wish.....mines paid for,it's a Porsche,It's fast and controllable and the best value car Stuttgart ever produced....a real 911 C2/4 eater...and THAT's the truth. Did I mention I have Savannah?......OOPS!
Next Week- My Home/Bank Account/Cock is bigger than yours.
**edited to add 'cock'**
>> Edited by aliged on Monday 29th August 21:00
Next Week- My Home/Bank Account/Cock is bigger than yours.
**edited to add 'cock'**
>> Edited by aliged on Monday 29th August 21:00
Thanks guys. The thing is (Alistair) that I've just sold my manual 260 bhp facelift Bosxter s. It was perfect in every way, huge spec (carrera's litronic, PSM full leather) but it just felt, too perfect. It didn't make me want to get it out of the garage just for a blast, the way my old Chimaera made me do (4 litre 240 Bhp model). Less than half the price, put together with glue and tacks, but great fun.
I'm hoping a 911 will do that for me and that's why I think the air cooled 911 may be the one for me.
The case of less being more?
Initial observations that the 'book' speeds of the 993 2/4 seem similar to the Boxter s and power output 272vs 260 for the Boxster seem very close. I need to drive a few and see but I'm hoping a raw 'older model 911' Porsche may be more fun!
I'm hoping a 911 will do that for me and that's why I think the air cooled 911 may be the one for me.
The case of less being more?
Initial observations that the 'book' speeds of the 993 2/4 seem similar to the Boxter s and power output 272vs 260 for the Boxster seem very close. I need to drive a few and see but I'm hoping a raw 'older model 911' Porsche may be more fun!
I've come from manual 6 speed impreza STi > M3 CSL with SMG > 996 TT Tiptronic.
The best system is the SMG, that really is best of everything. Manual & Auto, and the paddles shifts change VERY fast.
The day I picked up my TT, that evening I was on the tunnel train, and did 3,500 miles in 1 week around Germany, Switzerland and Italy.
You can tell the tiptronic S is an auto, lot more so that the BMW systems, however in manual mode, after some playing around I started to really enjoy it. Select third, stick your foot down slightly, then drop again into second and you just take off. For the sort of milage I do tip was the wiser choice, but you need to consider a few things.
If you plan on tracking the car, quite a few times a year I'd go manaul, if you plan on 'touring' I'd go tip. My ideal car would be a 911 Turbo S with SMG style paddle shifts, that would be awesum!
Basically, tip has impressed me much more than I thought it was going to, and I wouldn't swap given the choice.
Having said that, these comments are all based on the 996 911TT, so I have no idea what tip would be like in 993's on the n/a models.
Like others have said, the only real way to decide is to drive both.
The best system is the SMG, that really is best of everything. Manual & Auto, and the paddles shifts change VERY fast.
The day I picked up my TT, that evening I was on the tunnel train, and did 3,500 miles in 1 week around Germany, Switzerland and Italy.
You can tell the tiptronic S is an auto, lot more so that the BMW systems, however in manual mode, after some playing around I started to really enjoy it. Select third, stick your foot down slightly, then drop again into second and you just take off. For the sort of milage I do tip was the wiser choice, but you need to consider a few things.
If you plan on tracking the car, quite a few times a year I'd go manaul, if you plan on 'touring' I'd go tip. My ideal car would be a 911 Turbo S with SMG style paddle shifts, that would be awesum!
Basically, tip has impressed me much more than I thought it was going to, and I wouldn't swap given the choice.
Having said that, these comments are all based on the 996 911TT, so I have no idea what tip would be like in 993's on the n/a models.
Like others have said, the only real way to decide is to drive both.
roygarth said:
I don't have figures for 993 but:
964 C2 Manual 0-60 = 5.0 seconds
964 C2 Tiptronic 0-60 = 6.5 seconds
One reason to avoid Tiptronic.
99% of the drivers on this forum would be no quicker around a circuit with either tip or manual - very, very few of us have the skill necessary to make a difference. Of the remaining 1% who 'think' they have the talent, only 5% of those actually do!
In the 964 and 993, the tip only has 4 ratios - but the last time I drove the 'ring I don't recall using all 5 gears of the 964 turbo S I was in. 2nd, 3rd and 4th mainly.
I would suggest you drive the tip and drive a manual. Look at lots of 993s and buy the best possible condition you can find. I hear Manek is selling his and if the timing was better I would be taking his pride & joy off his hands!
Well, I don't know. I couldn't afford a 996TT anyway. I'm a scummy scroate that can't really afford a 3.2C.
On the other hand, that means I don't have to be condescending.
If you have a really expensive 996TT tip that you're trying to be rid of, cos youre not strong enough to decide what you want for yourself, and stick by it when everyone rips the piss. Then I guess it pays to patronise, and say black is white.
Think for yourself. You've already said that the boxter seems dull. If it's real adrenaline that you want, get a heavily supercharged Cerbie, and force yourself to get 220 mph from it.
It's horses for courses in the end. Don't listen to me though, I only drive a battered 911, cos I'd like to have enough money to own a Carrera Abarth.
>> Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 30th August 00:02
Edited to add,
I mean, who would buy a nearly new 996TT when you could have an old car that's much nicer?
>> Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 30th August 00:08
On the other hand, that means I don't have to be condescending.
If you have a really expensive 996TT tip that you're trying to be rid of, cos youre not strong enough to decide what you want for yourself, and stick by it when everyone rips the piss. Then I guess it pays to patronise, and say black is white.
Think for yourself. You've already said that the boxter seems dull. If it's real adrenaline that you want, get a heavily supercharged Cerbie, and force yourself to get 220 mph from it.
It's horses for courses in the end. Don't listen to me though, I only drive a battered 911, cos I'd like to have enough money to own a Carrera Abarth.
>> Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 30th August 00:02
Edited to add,
I mean, who would buy a nearly new 996TT when you could have an old car that's much nicer?
>> Edited by dilbert on Tuesday 30th August 00:08
0-60 stats mean nothing, it is driving on the move and having had a 968 tip and a 993 tip would get another. Currently have a manual 993 which I love, but a lot of the fun and enjoyment disappears in heavy stop start traffic.
I would also love to see anybody pass me if I was driving a tip against the manual version. Have had many days out when I had one of the tip cars with friends in manual and there is no difference, as has been said before, no messy gearchange mistakes entering a corner, you basically have it in manual and change between 2nd and 3rd, never need to go near 4th.
There is a pathetic amount of snobbery with certain porsche owners about tip v manual, but that comes from ignorance rather than experience, a bit like 993 v 996 debates!
I would also love to see anybody pass me if I was driving a tip against the manual version. Have had many days out when I had one of the tip cars with friends in manual and there is no difference, as has been said before, no messy gearchange mistakes entering a corner, you basically have it in manual and change between 2nd and 3rd, never need to go near 4th.
There is a pathetic amount of snobbery with certain porsche owners about tip v manual, but that comes from ignorance rather than experience, a bit like 993 v 996 debates!
I've had the chance to drive a Tiptronic Boxster whilst owning my previous manual Boxster, and have to say I found it likeable to drive, and could easily appreciate the 'automatic' configuration when driving in congestion, and or traffic.
There is no doubt that having the 'gear's changed for you' is a less engaging 'experience' than doing everything for yourself, but I would admit that if I were using a Porsche to commute mainly in stopstart traffic, then a Tip would be preferable (as would any automatic car).
The actual 'real world' performace differences between Manual & Tiptronic cars is likely to be indistunguishable(sp?), for the average driver though. So unless your driving everywhere optimally like a racing driver, your not going to appreciate the slighltly performance hit.
There is no doubt that having the 'gear's changed for you' is a less engaging 'experience' than doing everything for yourself, but I would admit that if I were using a Porsche to commute mainly in stopstart traffic, then a Tip would be preferable (as would any automatic car).
The actual 'real world' performace differences between Manual & Tiptronic cars is likely to be indistunguishable(sp?), for the average driver though. So unless your driving everywhere optimally like a racing driver, your not going to appreciate the slighltly performance hit.
Have to admit to having not driven a Tip 993, but if it is as good as some on here are saying, then I think it is a fantastic testament to the flexibility of the flat six, that being shorter of two gears doesn't have more of an impact. Still, for me, whilst there is a six speed manual on offer, there is no way I would entertain opting for a four speed slush. Then again, I rarely drive mine in heavy traffic.
Can't comment on a 993 Tip, but I do have a 996 Tip.
As with many things, sometimes you can't get exactly what you want. If its the perfect 993 for you, spec/colour/condition etc but its a Tip and you wanted a manual - what do you do?
I do a lot of driving in heavy traffic so the Tip is a help. (911's do have heavy clutches).
In auto mode, its is truly awful, THE WORST auto I have ever driven.
But, once in 'manual' and you start flicking those switches - its fantastic!
As with many things, sometimes you can't get exactly what you want. If its the perfect 993 for you, spec/colour/condition etc but its a Tip and you wanted a manual - what do you do?
I do a lot of driving in heavy traffic so the Tip is a help. (911's do have heavy clutches).
In auto mode, its is truly awful, THE WORST auto I have ever driven.
But, once in 'manual' and you start flicking those switches - its fantastic!
I've driven auto's for many years now and consequently when I bought my 911 a couple of months ago it had to be a Tip. Anyone who uses the M25 on a regular basis would be mad to have a manual IMHO.
I find in auto mode it is as good as any other auto I have had including an XJR and a SL500. The gear changes are smooth and adaptive to your current driving style. When in tip mode it increases involvement and is great fun and if I forget it's in tip it will help me out by changeing gear if I stop and pull away again.
Nothing comes close especially that atrocity, SMG, from BMW. Without doubt the worst system I have ever used. It was an SMG1 in an e36 and I understand they improved things on the later SMG2 e46 model but they really needed to.
Porsche Tiptronic is perfect giving you the best of both worlds.
I find in auto mode it is as good as any other auto I have had including an XJR and a SL500. The gear changes are smooth and adaptive to your current driving style. When in tip mode it increases involvement and is great fun and if I forget it's in tip it will help me out by changeing gear if I stop and pull away again.
Nothing comes close especially that atrocity, SMG, from BMW. Without doubt the worst system I have ever used. It was an SMG1 in an e36 and I understand they improved things on the later SMG2 e46 model but they really needed to.
Porsche Tiptronic is perfect giving you the best of both worlds.
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