Play in steering, a bit unstable

[tommytaylor]

Bit of a strange one this (and complicated), I can do mechanics and can fix most things but this is a bit weird. The vehicle is a Citroen dispatch 2015 and its been to the moon and back. When driving round a left hand bend fairly quickly the van has a tendency to suddenly tighten the turn a bit, its hard to describe but its like someone has suddenly snatched the wheel further to the left, it doesn't slide or anything but if its not corrected then it would veer off the side of the road. It doesn't do it every time but is more noticeable at higher speeds. It kind of feels like the trye wall has distorted or something like that.

I've replaced both lower arms and it made no difference, both wheel bearing are ok and it has new disks pads, that sort of thing.

However if the drivers side is jacked up (passenger on the ground) the wheel has a bit of play left to right but the strange thing is the steering wheel moves in tandem with rocking the wheel. If you jack up the passenger side with the drivers side on the ground everything is tight and there isn't any play whatsoever.

What I don't get is if the steering wheel moves with the drivers wheel then the problem must be in the left hand side of the rack so why isn't there any play in the passenger side wheel?

[Rich1973]

I have a Rover 75 that a van ran into last year on the front offside. There was no visible damage other than the front offside wing. I gave everything a thorough inspection and found a bit of play in the track rod end and a noise that made me suspect top mount. Both were replaced along with the wing and the tracking done as the hit had put it out. I knew it meant the wheel had to have been hit but there was no marks on either the wheel or tyre.
Anyway, a few months later there were a few loud clunk's on the offside at parking manoeuvre speeds and then afterwards there was a noticeable give when turning left. It felt like catching a bit of ice and sliding maybe a foot offline before re gripping. I noticed when diagnosing this new issue that the offside wheel would twitch at a certain point of turning the steering wheel while stationary.
I wasn't sure if it was the top mount or the rack.
Took it to my mechanics and they couldn't 100% determine which it was either.
If they were to look further it would be a case of start stripping it.
Personally I strongly suspect the rack has slight damage but over the course of a few months the suddenness of the twitch has eased to more of a 'give' but the phenomenon of losing the line slightly in a left turn is still there.
Only ever been while turning left though. Turning right is still absolutely fine.
Sounds very similar to your issue hence my lengthy reply.

[GreenV8S]

I would suspect that the method you're using to jack the suspension up is resulting in a loaded joint somewhere producing enough friction to stop you feeling the play. pushing on wheels and components by hand produces tiny loads compared to when the car is driven and is not a definitive way to find play.

[tommytaylor]

I finally had time to look at this yesterday and despite putting two lower arms on the vehicle in Nov 22 the bottom ball joint on the drivers side is completely knackered. In fairness there was a nick in the rubber boot on it but no sign of any grease or anything leaking out, but even if it was damaged could a ball joint wear out that much in 7 months? Or is it just a case of crap ebay parts.

Just to clarify the ball joint comes complete with the arm, along with two bushes.

[paintman]

Damage to the boot will allow grease out but will also allow water - which may have a lot of salt in it if the roads were gritted - in & that will rust the ball resulting in damage.

It could also be a crappy ebay part!
Fitted a pair of cheap ebay droplinks to Mrs p's 307 & the rubber boots failed in under 9 months. Fitted a decent set & they're still fine 2 years on.

[tommytaylor]

This problem still inst sorted. I've changed the faulty lower arm now and put 4 new tyres on it so that eliminates those two problems. So both lower arms are now perfect, all tyres are new, no play in any of the 4 wheel bearing, 4 springs are fine, 4 shocks are still attached at both ends and take the bounce out of the springs, all anti roll bar fixings are good, track rod ends seem ok. suspension top mounts seem to be fixed soundly.

The only problem I can see is the steering wheel is no longer straight, its turned slightly to the left but both front tyres had warn exactly the same, they had both scrubbed on the outer edge. When driving straight its fine, it doesn't wander anywhere and only pulls very slightly to the left if at all. you can throw it round a right hand bend like a rally car and its perfectly fine but go round a left hand bend and it feels like its on oil or something, steering gives the impression of going light and the van suddenly decides it wants to go round a tighter bend that you have steered so it feels like it lurches to the left or its rolling to the right, if you didnt back off the steering then it would mount the kerb so its definitely steering sharper than I have "asked" it to. When you steer straihgt again it kind of lurches back again too.

Such a strange problem, the new tyres seem to have made the problem worse as well, there is only the steering rack left to investigate but there isn't any play in the steering at all.

[stevieturbo]

And have you had the alignment checked ? All 4 wheels

And you assume the problem relates to the front end ?

[tommytaylor]

stevieturbo said:

And have you had the alignment checked ? All 4 wheels

And you assume the problem relates to the front end ?

No, thats why I checked all 4 wheel bearing and suspension mounts etc, I'm sure the alignment is out but would that cause serious steering problems or just scrub the tyres more than normal.

I did forget to mention that the rear left tyre was in a much worse condition wear wise that then right one, it was bald on the inside and outside edges but the right one had worn pretty evenly.

[stevieturbo]

of course incorrect alignment can cause issues, whether it be steering, tyre wear, or just feeling horrible, tramlining, etc etc

[tommytaylor]

stevieturbo said:

of course incorrect alignment can cause issues, whether it be steering, tyre wear, or just feeling horrible, tramlining, etc etc

I agree there can be issues but an issue like we have? I've though of a scenario that it feels like. you are driving round a bend with something heavy and tall in the back which suddenly falls over causing the van to suddenly lurch into a different position halfway wound the bend, that's what it feels like, its a sudden thing when everything feels normal beforehand.

[dontlookdown]

The symptom you describe of the steering feeling like it winds itself on part way round a corner is exactly what my daughter's Yaris started doing recently.

It was caused by a bent track rod (steering arm as they seem to be increasingly called now). She had bounced up a kerb on full lock and that bent the track rod slightly.

Garage straightened it and did the alignment, all good since.

Daughter has been told not to do it again. At least not on full lock;)

[stevieturbo]

tommytaylor said:

I agree there can be issues but an issue like we have? I've though of a scenario that it feels like. you are driving round a bend with something heavy and tall in the back which suddenly falls over causing the van to suddenly lurch into a different position halfway wound the bend, that's what it feels like, its a sudden thing when everything feels normal beforehand.

I haven't driven it, so I can't say

Oddly I had a similar scenario the other day in one of my cars.

Drove round a left hand bend, and there was quite a thunk behind me as if something heavy shifted. And it's a two seat small mid engine car, so other than the engine and perhaps fuel tank, there is nothing heavy behind me, nor anything that can move !!!
So very weird, it did not do it again, and throughout it drove fine.

[tommytaylor]

dontlookdown said:

The symptom you describe of the steering feeling like it winds itself on part way round a corner is exactly what my daughter's Yaris started doing recently.

It was caused by a bent track rod (steering arm as they seem to be increasingly called now). She had bounced up a kerb on full lock and that bent the track rod slightly.

Garage straightened it and did the alignment, all good since.

Daughter has been told not to do it again. At least not on full lock;)

I'm going to have another look tomorrow if its not raining, I'm pretty convinced it something to do with the rack/track rods now, I don't think it can be anything else. Its annoying because I can usually fix stuff like this no problem.

[dontlookdown]

tommytaylor said:

I'm going to have another look tomorrow if its not raining, I'm pretty convinced it something to do with the rack/track rods now, I don't think it can be anything else. Its annoying because I can usually fix stuff like this no problem.

In my daughter's case, it wasn't the track rod end but the track rod itself that was bent. It's definitely worth you looking at I reckon. Also the rack you say, could also be slightly bent or just sticky.

Good luck!

Edited by dontlookdown on Monday 31st July 07:52

[tommytaylor]

Well I've had a good look at this today, absolutely convinced there isn't any loose bushes, ball joints or bent bits of any description. I've also had a play with the tracking, I undid one track rod 2 turns and screwed the other track rod in 2 turns and now the steering wheel is dead straight and the van drives in a straight line. If I go an extra turn on either rod in or out then it upsets the steering of the vehicle, you can fee l the torque steer a lot more when you go on and off the power so I reckon that the geometry is about right where it is.

What I have noticed though is this problem only occurs when the steering wheel gets to about 90deg left turn, so at 80 deg the van is steering correctly into the bend even at speed but turn the wheel just a tiny bit more and it suddenly pulls to the left, back off the wheel again and it lurches back to where it should be. I'm convinced there is something wrong with the power rack, its a hydraulic pump as opposed to electric power steering rack, might just try a fluid flush if I can first.

[GreenV8S]

Does that car have a steering wheel position sensor? If you have any sort of ESP it might be getting confused.

[tommytaylor]

GreenV8S said:

Does that car have a steering wheel position sensor? If you have any sort of ESP it might be getting confused.

Possibly, you maybe onto something, the ABS/TCR light comes on in the van every time you drive it for a bit but can that be related to the pulling scenario? How sophisticated is the stability control on these vans (2015), I cant believe it applies the brakes or anything, I thought they just cut power if it skidded. I assumed the fault was just an ABS sensor like they normally are.

I do have the software for our van so will have a look at the fault codes ASAP.

[stevieturbo]

tommytaylor said:

Possibly, you maybe onto something, the ABS/TCR light comes on in the van every time you drive it for a bit but can that be related to the pulling scenario? How sophisticated is the stability control on these vans (2015), I cant believe it applies the brakes or anything, I thought they just cut power if it skidded. I assumed the fault was just an ABS sensor like they normally are.

I do have the software for our van so will have a look at the fault codes ASAP.

cutting power would achieve very little.

Stability control needs to be able to apply brakes etc.

Obviously any warning lights was an important piece of information. Although during any controlling actions, there should be a light to indicate something is being done
Clearly it needs scanned for codes if the light is coming on with normal driving, and investigate the live data it is seeing during these incidents

[tommytaylor]

stevieturbo said:

tommytaylor said:

Possibly, you maybe onto something, the ABS/TCR light comes on in the van every time you drive it for a bit but can that be related to the pulling scenario? How sophisticated is the stability control on these vans (2015), I cant believe it applies the brakes or anything, I thought they just cut power if it skidded. I assumed the fault was just an ABS sensor like they normally are.

I do have the software for our van so will have a look at the fault codes ASAP.

cutting power would achieve very little.

Stability control needs to be able to apply brakes etc.

Obviously any warning lights was an important piece of information. Although during any controlling actions, there should be a light to indicate something is being done
Clearly it needs scanned for codes if the light is coming on with normal driving, and investigate the live data it is seeing during these incidents

Yes, I think we are onto something, I've scanned it today and it does indeed say steering angle fault so maybe this is the culprit after all. I just didn't connect the two faults, the steering pull felt like it had to be a mechanical fault, couldn't be anything else as far as I was concerned and I've had, ABS/TCR faults on other vehicles in the past which has always turned out to be a faulty ABS sensor.

What I find bizarre though is I'm perfectly able to control a vehicle without any electronic aids, my first car didn't even have power steering let alone ABS or anything like that but the modern nannying safety feature on our van has tuned it into a potential death trap.

Edit : just to add, yes, I was a passenger today when it happened and the TC light was definitely flashing in the dash.

Edited by tommytaylor on Tuesday 1st August 16:53

[stevieturbo]

tommytaylor said:

but the modern nannying safety feature on our van has tuned it into a potential death trap.

Edit : just to add, yes, I was a passenger today when it happened and the TC light was definitely flashing in the dash.

Edited by tommytaylor on Tuesday 1st August 16:53

Or ignoring faults and warnings from the modern safety, has made it more dangerous ?