A warning - Stroll taking AML ‘ultra luxury’
Discussion
As we all know, the company’s new overlord is on record as stating he wants to take the ‘brand’ further upmarket, and is raising prices for new cars.
There are other signs of an all out attempt to squeeze customers and increase margins - the increase in the stated cost of a simple CoC (a piece of paper) which has been brutally lifted from £199 to £1000.
There’s perhaps less room for increasing post warranty FD service costs due to competition from independents, but it’s likely that dealer hourly rates will go up, but my main concern is going to be spares prices - especially anything where it’s not so easy to find alternatives (as it is to find identical Ford, Jag or Volvo bits for the VH cars).
With the new models, there’s likely an opportunity to turn the screws, making it much more difficult to find alternative parts, blurring the lines, and hiking the prices as Strolls edicts on profits are translated into a far more aggressive approach. If, as seems increasingly likely, a much more ruthless approach to warranty work, dealer labour and especially spares costs happens, I wonder what impact this will have on the general customer goodwill which AML has traditionally relied on…?
There are other signs of an all out attempt to squeeze customers and increase margins - the increase in the stated cost of a simple CoC (a piece of paper) which has been brutally lifted from £199 to £1000.
There’s perhaps less room for increasing post warranty FD service costs due to competition from independents, but it’s likely that dealer hourly rates will go up, but my main concern is going to be spares prices - especially anything where it’s not so easy to find alternatives (as it is to find identical Ford, Jag or Volvo bits for the VH cars).
With the new models, there’s likely an opportunity to turn the screws, making it much more difficult to find alternative parts, blurring the lines, and hiking the prices as Strolls edicts on profits are translated into a far more aggressive approach. If, as seems increasingly likely, a much more ruthless approach to warranty work, dealer labour and especially spares costs happens, I wonder what impact this will have on the general customer goodwill which AML has traditionally relied on…?
Imagine if under this new business model, all new Aston Martin models are priced above £200,000.
As product prices increase, the number of sales inevitably reduce at a certain point.
Many of us treat our Aston Martins as occasional cars. Irrespectuve of wealth, some owners might be prepared to spend a certain amount of money on a rarely used toy, but probably still have their own spending limit considered to be sensible.
The Aston Martin annual sales record for sports cars, is just over 7,000.
It will be interesting to see how far prices can be escalated, but still retain good sales numbers.
We have seen recently with the limited edition V12V, an "All sold out" production run, then revealed a number of cars being advertised for sale at lower prices.
Not an easy balance, particularly at a time when the general economy is under pressure.
I’m not sure how much competition from independent servicing there’ll be going forward. For the Gaydon era cars an independent could purchase AMDS for a one-off cost and would have it forevermore. I believe for the later Mercedes powered models not only does the independent have to hire rather than buy the diagnostic kit but said kit can be recalled by the manufacturer at any time. If I were an independent specialist I doubt I’d want to invest in working on increasingly complex vehicles with no guarantee of the availability of the diagnostics.
I think OEMs are going to offer buyers of new cars 5-7 years servicing included after which these owners will likely swap the car for a newer model and the owners of used models will find themselves tied in to the dealerships for servicing.
I can imagine in the future the dealerships will retain even more control over looking after EVs.
I think OEMs are going to offer buyers of new cars 5-7 years servicing included after which these owners will likely swap the car for a newer model and the owners of used models will find themselves tied in to the dealerships for servicing.
I can imagine in the future the dealerships will retain even more control over looking after EVs.
Caslad said:
I’m not sure how much competition from independent servicing there’ll be going forward. For the Gaydon era cars an independent could purchase AMDS for a one-off cost and would have it forevermore. I believe for the later Mercedes powered models not only does the independent have to hire rather than buy the diagnostic kit, but said kit can be recalled by the manufacturer at any time. ...
One more reason for keeping our VH cars.
I think I have heard that when M-B diagnostics are used, it has to be linked to some kind of M-B HQ department, so that a centralised record of work carried out can be maintained.
AstonV said:
The market will determine how much new AM’s will sell for. I can’t see going much more “up” market with an off the shelf Mercedes engine. When a buyer can go to Ferrari, Lamborghini or Mclaren for similar cost. AM will need their own engines.
It's all over for AM engines and for that matter it will soon be over for Ferrari, Lamborghini and Mac engines too.You can look forward your Lucid powered DB13 or keep what you have.
GT3ZZZ said:
It's all over for AM engines and for that matter it will soon be over for Ferrari, Lamborghini and Mac engines too.
You can look forward your Lucid powered DB13 or keep what you have.
No Lamborghini and I believe Ferrari have both said no. We will not discontinue ICE. Toyota and Ford same. You can look forward your Lucid powered DB13 or keep what you have.
GT3ZZZ said:
You can look forward your Lucid powered DB13 or keep what you have.
Actually, you can "keep what you have" as long as governments remain tolerant enough to "allow you" to purchase fuel and license it to be driven on public streets. If that changes, then.....you have a very nice museum piece...that hopefully some will pay to see sitting in a warehouse. Caslad said:
I’m not sure how much competition from independent servicing there’ll be going forward. For the Gaydon era cars an independent could purchase AMDS for a one-off cost and would have it forevermore. I believe for the later Mercedes powered models not only does the independent have to hire rather than buy the diagnostic kit but said kit can be recalled by the manufacturer at any time. If I were an independent specialist I doubt I’d want to invest in working on increasingly complex vehicles with no guarantee of the availability of the diagnostics.
I think OEMs are going to offer buyers of new cars 5-7 years servicing included after which these owners will likely swap the car for a newer model and the owners of used models will find themselves tied in to the dealerships for servicing.
I can imagine in the future the dealerships will retain even more control over looking after EVs.
Not quite true on the kit front.I think OEMs are going to offer buyers of new cars 5-7 years servicing included after which these owners will likely swap the car for a newer model and the owners of used models will find themselves tied in to the dealerships for servicing.
I can imagine in the future the dealerships will retain even more control over looking after EVs.
They can buy the kit and VCI diag bits in particular. AMDS2 and the new AMSDB are subscription based services like Netflix etc.
AMDS2 is only compatible with a few VCI kits, where as all AM dealers are moving to the new Bosch VCI with AMDSDB, which eventually will be for VH and mercedes era cars.
Additionally regarding Mercedes, no they don't in *general* require connection to Mercedes servers and AMDS 2 and DB are in house Gaydon developments.
The slight truth is that Mercedes engineering diag and coding tool, Vediamo will work on the Mercedes era cars as well. But there is bigger risk.
The in general bit above regarding diagnostics is generally true for certain applications AM are still restricted, one particular area is around programming of keys. Thankfully the standard used by AM is FSB4 from Mercedes, this requires a live connection to the Merc Xentry servers and requires reasoning etc. Only one tech per AM dealer can programme keys apparently, on the production line there is a live connection to the servers to programme keys to the car.
Thankfully and given the spate of key programming tools, as it currently stands, FSB4 has not been cracked given the requirements of a live connection to Xentry.
Edited by Ninja59 on Sunday 2nd July 01:39
AstonV said:
The market will determine how much new AM’s will sell for. I can’t see going much more “up” market with an off the shelf Mercedes engine. When a buyer can go to Ferrari, Lamborghini or Mclaren for similar cost. AM will need their own engines.
It is a little strong to call it off the shelf in terms of the AE22 and AE24.Even the base AE22 is not *entirely* shared at all with Mercedes. No Mercedes variant features a metal oil sump, the AE22 does. Furthermore, regarding mapping and exhaust that was all AM.
Additionally, the DBX707 engine may use parts from the black series, like the turbo chargers, but the overall engines are substantially different.
Finally, regarding DB12 the fact it has the power it does, and yes I have heard from some sources AM are testing ones with even more power i.e. +700hp.
As long as AM can create and updated exhaust sound that sounds like it should and *comply with modern regulations* (before anyone bemoans x previous sounds better) then I don't see an ounce of a problem with them using a reliable, powerful and emissions compliant engine.
The older V8 you may romance about, but they were not powerful enough, reliable enough (considering I have heard about certain numbers across 3 yrs for VH cars!) Or emissions complaint.
Even with AM's price uplift Ferrari are certainly still in a more expensive camp, Lambo are likely to be the same as Ferrari soon and that leaves Mclaren.
Ninja59 said:
It is a little strong to call it off the shelf in terms of the AE22 and AE24.
Even the base AE22 is not *entirely* shared at all with Mercedes. No Mercedes variant features a metal oil sump, the AE22 does. Furthermore, regarding mapping and exhaust that was all AM.
Additionally, the DBX707 engine may use parts from the black series, like the turbo chargers, but the overall engines are substantially different.
Finally, regarding DB12 the fact it has the power it does, and yes I have heard from some sources AM are testing ones with even more power i.e. +700hp.
As long as AM can create and updated exhaust sound that sounds like it should and *comply with modern regulations* (before anyone bemoans x previous sounds better) then I don't see an ounce of a problem with them using a reliable, powerful and emissions compliant engine.
The older V8 you may romance about, but they were not powerful enough, reliable enough (considering I have heard about certain numbers across 3 yrs for VH cars!) Or emissions complaint.
Even with AM's price uplift Ferrari are certainly still in a more expensive camp, Lambo are likely to be the same as Ferrari soon and that leaves Mclaren.
Not “romancing” about any specific engine. I understand AM puts their spin on the Mercedes 4.0 bi turbo. But to my eyes they look the same and to my ears sound the same as every other popping flatulent AMG turbo engine out there. I’m sure with enough boost upgraded parts and ecu tuning they will easily coax 1000 HP out of it. If power is what makes the car, then your right. Even the base AE22 is not *entirely* shared at all with Mercedes. No Mercedes variant features a metal oil sump, the AE22 does. Furthermore, regarding mapping and exhaust that was all AM.
Additionally, the DBX707 engine may use parts from the black series, like the turbo chargers, but the overall engines are substantially different.
Finally, regarding DB12 the fact it has the power it does, and yes I have heard from some sources AM are testing ones with even more power i.e. +700hp.
As long as AM can create and updated exhaust sound that sounds like it should and *comply with modern regulations* (before anyone bemoans x previous sounds better) then I don't see an ounce of a problem with them using a reliable, powerful and emissions compliant engine.
The older V8 you may romance about, but they were not powerful enough, reliable enough (considering I have heard about certain numbers across 3 yrs for VH cars!) Or emissions complaint.
Even with AM's price uplift Ferrari are certainly still in a more expensive camp, Lambo are likely to be the same as Ferrari soon and that leaves Mclaren.
AstonV said:
Not “romancing” about any specific engine. I understand AM puts their spin on the Mercedes 4.0 bi turbo. But to my eyes they look the same and to my ears sound the same as every other popping flatulent AMG turbo engine out there. I’m sure with enough boost upgraded parts and ecu tuning they will easily coax 1000 HP out of it. If power is what makes the car, then your right.
AMG is far from the only one that sounds like that, a lot of exhaust noise compliance has seen to exhaust sound in general. Even to the extent Jag had to reduce the noise on the F type through production and post manufacture.They look the same? Bloody hell, what utter nonsense.
Ninja59 said:
AMG is far from the only one that sounds like that, a lot of exhaust noise compliance has seen to exhaust sound in general. Even to the extent Jag had to reduce the noise on the F type through production and post manufacture.
They look the same? Bloody hell, what utter nonsense.
The F type is supercharged, totally different sound. Unfortunately most turbocharged engines sound like crap. They look the same? Bloody hell, what utter nonsense.
I am referring to the engine bay, AMG GT & Vantage look very similar due to same basic engine.
AstonV said:
The F type is supercharged, totally different sound. Unfortunately most turbocharged engines sound like crap.
I am referring to the engine bay, AMG GT & Vantage look very similar due to same basic engine.
What the F type that still pops and crackles/farts as some might say? Irresspective of induction mechanism. The requirement on exhaust noise has had far greater impact on note and noise than sticking turbos on.I am referring to the engine bay, AMG GT & Vantage look very similar due to same basic engine.
Furthermore on the AMG GT and Vantage engine bays look massively different, bar the turbo heat treatment nothing looks the "same or similar". Fundamentally driven by the fact the base engines and packaging requirements are completely different! Aston started with the M177 not the M178 (GT variant only), good luck finding a wet sump system on an M178....
Edited by Ninja59 on Monday 3rd July 11:47
Edited by Ninja59 on Monday 3rd July 11:48
The future for most car companies is that they'll have to be software companies just as much as hardware companies unless they have a specific niche, like McLaren who make carbon track cars for example.
I doubt AM will ever be competent at either so they'll need a parent. I'm struggling to see past Geely at some point moving in eventually, it's just a case of when and understanding why Stroll wants anything to do with AM the car company. The badge he obviously likes.
I doubt AM will ever be competent at either so they'll need a parent. I'm struggling to see past Geely at some point moving in eventually, it's just a case of when and understanding why Stroll wants anything to do with AM the car company. The badge he obviously likes.
WantSagaris said:
The future for most car companies is that they'll have to be software companies just as much as hardware companies unless they have a specific niche, like McLaren who make carbon track cars for example.
I doubt AM will ever be competent at either so they'll need a parent. I'm struggling to see past Geely at some point moving in eventually, it's just a case of when and understanding why Stroll wants anything to do with AM the car company. The badge he obviously likes.
I agree to an extent over the software bit, sadly though some of the base files are from Tier 1 providers that the manufacturer starts out with (which opens some issues sometimes anyway), which the larger players may wish (and some do) own outright. But even then they are getting the fundamentals wrong for example VW with their own software provider, CARIAD. I doubt AM will ever be competent at either so they'll need a parent. I'm struggling to see past Geely at some point moving in eventually, it's just a case of when and understanding why Stroll wants anything to do with AM the car company. The badge he obviously likes.
I think it is slightly early to judge AMs efforts with the DB12 which has the infotainment software more in view and part of AMs in house development (with around 25 or 30 people iirc). AM has some good minds when it comes to software tweaking and updating (for example take the same part from Mercedes it won't necessarily be plug and play on a merc era car as AM did redevelop it to varying degrees).
Additionally, AMDS2 and AMDSDB were/are in house developments.
Ninja59 said:
What the F type that still pops and crackles/farts as some might say? Irresspective of induction mechanism. The requirement on exhaust noise has had far greater impact on note and noise than sticking turbos on.
Furthermore on the AMG GT and Vantage engine bays look massively different, bar the turbo heat treatment nothing looks the "same or similar". Fundamentally driven by the fact the base engines and packaging requirements are completely different! Aston started with the M177 not the M178 (GT variant only), good luck finding a wet sump system on an M178....
I think the North American and European perspectives on exhaust noise may be quite different these days, due to generally more stringent European regulations. From my (Canadian) perspective, turbos have a far greater effect on exhaust noise, but then again, we don't have to deal with particulate filters on a lot of our cars.Furthermore on the AMG GT and Vantage engine bays look massively different, bar the turbo heat treatment nothing looks the "same or similar". Fundamentally driven by the fact the base engines and packaging requirements are completely different! Aston started with the M177 not the M178 (GT variant only), good luck finding a wet sump system on an M178....
I'm not a fan of engineered pops and crackles that seem to have become fashionable in the last 7 to 10 years. But I will say I prefer the sound of the F-Type's crisp flatulence compared to the loose-cheeked raspberries that are made by AMG products
As for your engine bay pictures, our retinas must process images very differently. What you have shown looks much the same to me, except for a couple of big braces, that is to say, an ugly sea of plastic shrouds and tubes (but hey, that's what you get in pretty much any car these days).
quench said:
I think the North American and European perspectives on exhaust noise may be quite different these days, due to generally more stringent European regulations. From my (Canadian) perspective, turbos have a far greater effect on exhaust noise, but then again, we don't have to deal with particulate filters on a lot of our cars.
I'm not a fan of engineered pops and crackles that seem to have become fashionable in the last 7 to 10 years. But I will say I prefer the sound of the F-Type's crisp flatulence compared to the loose-cheeked raspberries that are made by AMG products
As for your engine bay pictures, our retinas must process images very differently. What you have shown looks much the same to me, except for a couple of big braces, that is to say, an ugly sea of plastic shrouds and tubes (but hey, that's what you get in pretty much any car these days).
It might well be, but from a European perspective there is little they can do, maybe the engineered aspect is because of that. I'm not a fan of engineered pops and crackles that seem to have become fashionable in the last 7 to 10 years. But I will say I prefer the sound of the F-Type's crisp flatulence compared to the loose-cheeked raspberries that are made by AMG products
As for your engine bay pictures, our retinas must process images very differently. What you have shown looks much the same to me, except for a couple of big braces, that is to say, an ugly sea of plastic shrouds and tubes (but hey, that's what you get in pretty much any car these days).
The "same", there is literally one semi similar component on display (being the turbo shroud on the top of the engine)...and technically speaking whilst a similar shape the AM one is different to the Merc one (which I believe they started with, but identified issues). Everything else there is substantially different from the intake piping parts and setup to the cover over the turbo coolant.
The only covers that look "similar" in the AM range to the merc variants are in the DBX.
We seem to have digressed a little from the original topic, so here’s last weeks document outlining the new vision. Enjoy. 
https://www.astonmartin.com/-/media/corporate/docu...
Best Regards
Minglar
https://www.astonmartin.com/-/media/corporate/docu...
Best Regards
Minglar
In a 30year career in engineering, I have sat through an awful lot of this type of executive/marketing led stuff in my time but this takes the hyperbole to a new level. Yes they have to have a plan for the future, but much of this looks like wishful thinking to me, together with somewhat crude efforts to convince potential investors that the F1 team adds significant value to the business.
My original point was to warn that these efforts to take the ‘brand’ further upmarket is likely to result in much higher costs to keep our cars on the road, particularly where we have no choice other than to source components and or labour through the dealer network.
My original point was to warn that these efforts to take the ‘brand’ further upmarket is likely to result in much higher costs to keep our cars on the road, particularly where we have no choice other than to source components and or labour through the dealer network.
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