Crossing dual carriageway
Discussion
Question, when crossing a dual carriageway from a side road with the intention to turn right.
You pull across the first lanes and wait in the gap between the carriageways to join it.
Now the question is and I suspect we have all seen this, some drivers see the right lane is just about empty but there are vehicles in the left hand lane, so they turn onto the carriageway and stay in the outside lane knowing cars in the inside lane are probably doing 70.
Drives me nuts and our son was talking to me about it, now as far as I can see the HC doesn’t mention this but in my opinion common sense says this is not a good manoeuvre.
Then again the HC can’t cover every situation, but what are the views on this, acceptable or not, dangerous or not?
Personally I think it’s dangerous as you have no idea as you approach a car which has turned on the outside lane and just about moving and you are doing 70 wondering what they intend to do next, thanks guys.
You pull across the first lanes and wait in the gap between the carriageways to join it.
Now the question is and I suspect we have all seen this, some drivers see the right lane is just about empty but there are vehicles in the left hand lane, so they turn onto the carriageway and stay in the outside lane knowing cars in the inside lane are probably doing 70.
Drives me nuts and our son was talking to me about it, now as far as I can see the HC doesn’t mention this but in my opinion common sense says this is not a good manoeuvre.
Then again the HC can’t cover every situation, but what are the views on this, acceptable or not, dangerous or not?
Personally I think it’s dangerous as you have no idea as you approach a car which has turned on the outside lane and just about moving and you are doing 70 wondering what they intend to do next, thanks guys.
I suppose if there's a car in the gap waiting to join the DC you have no idea what they're going to do either...they could stay there until there's a 1 mile gap, they could jump out and sit at 30mph in L1 or L2, they could jump out and slam on the brakes, they could jump out and instantly hit 71mph and stay well ahead.
You just have to use your judgement and driving god skills to ensure you are aware & ready to react...just like in most day-to-day driving scenarios.
You just have to use your judgement and driving god skills to ensure you are aware & ready to react...just like in most day-to-day driving scenarios.
Edited by mmm-five on Monday 17th July 15:33
yeah i'd think that was idiotic to join in L2 while there is traffic in L1 doing the speed limit.
I'd imagine these types of dangerous junctions/crossing are being phased out in areas with any traffic - ie closing the middle, forcing traffic that wants to turn right, to first turn left (potentially with a slip road) and then turn around at the next roundabout.
I'd imagine these types of dangerous junctions/crossing are being phased out in areas with any traffic - ie closing the middle, forcing traffic that wants to turn right, to first turn left (potentially with a slip road) and then turn around at the next roundabout.
Popped down to West Pembrokeshire on the weekend and had this on the A40 a couple of times.....very unnerving (and I wasn't even driving!!)....especially when those pulling out were pick ups towing a trailer / heavy machinery. I can't believe it could ever be considered good driving practice in my opinion, but I guess sometimes a necessity to make progress.....
Edited by MattyD803 on Monday 17th July 15:52
Most junction crossings could be done safely if people just got their boot down.
If i pull out onto a fast moving road i'll be up to speed at the fastest rate the vehicle can manage, i dislike holding others up, but so many others faff about seemingly not happy unless they've caused at least one or preferably several other drivers to slow down or take other unecessary action to accommodate their incompetence, its entirely deliberate in some cases because once they've held everyone up they suddenly find the throttle pedal and shoot off, must get some perverse pleasure from it.
The worse examples of mincing about is often from vehicles with more than adequate power.
Its the same if someone waves or flashes you out, just get on with it don't make the person good enough to show you that courtesy regret doing so.
The problem with the type of maneuver in the OP is having trust that the person pulling out will in fact stay in the outside lane until up to speed.
If i pull out onto a fast moving road i'll be up to speed at the fastest rate the vehicle can manage, i dislike holding others up, but so many others faff about seemingly not happy unless they've caused at least one or preferably several other drivers to slow down or take other unecessary action to accommodate their incompetence, its entirely deliberate in some cases because once they've held everyone up they suddenly find the throttle pedal and shoot off, must get some perverse pleasure from it.
The worse examples of mincing about is often from vehicles with more than adequate power.
Its the same if someone waves or flashes you out, just get on with it don't make the person good enough to show you that courtesy regret doing so.
The problem with the type of maneuver in the OP is having trust that the person pulling out will in fact stay in the outside lane until up to speed.
I'd imagine the biggest risk here is someone unobservant in L1 deciding to pull out into L2 to overtake something and coming into conflict. If it's a case that traffic in L1 is spaced enough for that not to be a risk (albeit without a usable gap to pull into and accelerate safely) then I can see the logic in using L2 as long as you get a move on.
Vipers said:
Now the question is and I suspect we have all seen this, some drivers see the right lane is just about empty but there are vehicles in the left hand lane, so they turn onto the carriageway and stay in the outside lane knowing cars in the inside lane are probably doing 70.
...
Personally I think it’s dangerous as you have no idea as you approach a car which has turned on the outside lane and just about moving and you are doing 70 wondering what they intend to do next, thanks guys.
I used to turn out right onto a 70mph DC on my daily commute, in a 75hp Peugeot 306....
Personally I think it’s dangerous as you have no idea as you approach a car which has turned on the outside lane and just about moving and you are doing 70 wondering what they intend to do next, thanks guys.
I think the most basic thing is that the traffic already on the DC has right of way, so you shouldn't get in their way.
Therefore if there are two vehicles approaching in L1, the waiting traffic should anticipate that the rear vehicle may pull out to L2 to pass, and should wait.
Where the gaps in approaching traffic are big enough that this isn't an issue, in my opinion it's reasonable to either (a) turn out into a gap in L1 and expect approaching traffic to pass you in L2 as you accelerate or (b) turn out into and remain in L2 and expect the next approaching vehicle to pass you in L1, before you then move over to L1 in their wake (i.e. the manouevre the OP is complaining about).
I do understand the concern caused when a vehicle pulls out, but I think fundamentally on a well-sighted two lane road, if you're in one lane then it's reasonable for someone to join the road in the other one, and you shouldn't be too alarmed by that. Bottom line, we all pay for the road network and we should expect to co-operate to make most efficient use of it, and this is that.
Terminator X said:
Surely they will just get up to road speed and then move to inside lane.
TX.
You would hope so, but you never know if they will move over to L1 before marching road speed of other users, obviously some cars can get up to speed quite fast, others not so.TX.
Thanks to all the comments so far men.
brillomaster said:
yeah i'd think that was idiotic to join in L2 while there is traffic in L1 doing the speed limit.
I'd imagine these types of dangerous junctions/crossing are being phased out in areas with any traffic - ie closing the middle, forcing traffic that wants to turn right, to first turn left (potentially with a slip road) and then turn around at the next roundabout.
Loads of these junctions on the A90 Dundee to Aberdeen, traffic wanting to cross the southbound and turn right, at one particular junction it was reduced to 50 with cameras due a number of accidents.I'd imagine these types of dangerous junctions/crossing are being phased out in areas with any traffic - ie closing the middle, forcing traffic that wants to turn right, to first turn left (potentially with a slip road) and then turn around at the next roundabout.
The junction was a very busy junction for traffic coming from Montrose and still is.
Vipers said:
Personally I think it’s dangerous as you have no idea as you approach a car which has turned on the outside lane and just about moving and you are doing 70 wondering what they intend to do next, thanks guys.
I agree with this - I don't think assuming that the L1 car will effectively "undertake" the joining car with a really substantial difference in speed is safe at all. And that ignores any emergency braking/swerving type reaction from the driver of a fast moving car who thinks the joining car is pulling out on them. TBH if I see a car waiting to join, I at least cover the brake. As said above, I think the joining car should wait for a big enough gap then join L1 and let faster-moving traffic overtake in the normal way.
_Neal_ said:
Vipers said:
Personally I think it’s dangerous as you have no idea as you approach a car which has turned on the outside lane and just about moving and you are doing 70 wondering what they intend to do next, thanks guys.
I agree with this - I don't think assuming that the L1 car will effectively "undertake" the joining car with a really substantial difference in speed is safe at all. And that ignores any emergency braking/swerving type reaction from the driver of a fast moving car who thinks the joining car is pulling out on them. TBH if I see a car waiting to join, I at least cover the brake. As said above, I think the joining car should wait for a big enough gap then join L1 and let faster-moving traffic overtake in the normal way.
And this is the reason we are trying to get our small section of the A82 made a 50mph. It’s horrendous. Driveways where there’s no run off. Unprotected footpath and every driveway is able to turn both ways.
I need to stop on inside lane to turn left into driveway. And when leaving I need to get up to speed asap.
I can turn right across 4 lanes but I rarely do it.
I can also stop dead on outside lane of opposite carriage to turn right across the other 2 lanes to go into house.
I had a serious crash at Christmas which I’ve still not fully recovered from as someone hit me at 70mph from behind as I was turning in.
My drive on the left here. This is an up to date photo as I was pushed through that wall after the crash.
No way this should be a national speed limit.
Amey decided to put chevrons to try to keep cars apart.
There’s been 10 crashes on this section since, so that obviously doesn’t work.
I need to stop on inside lane to turn left into driveway. And when leaving I need to get up to speed asap.
I can turn right across 4 lanes but I rarely do it.
I can also stop dead on outside lane of opposite carriage to turn right across the other 2 lanes to go into house.
I had a serious crash at Christmas which I’ve still not fully recovered from as someone hit me at 70mph from behind as I was turning in.
My drive on the left here. This is an up to date photo as I was pushed through that wall after the crash.
No way this should be a national speed limit.
Amey decided to put chevrons to try to keep cars apart.
There’s been 10 crashes on this section since, so that obviously doesn’t work.
Edited by shambolic on Monday 17th July 21:48
brillomaster said:
yeah i'd think that was idiotic to join in L2 while there is traffic in L1 doing the speed limit.
I'd imagine these types of dangerous junctions/crossing are being phased out in areas with any traffic - ie closing the middle, forcing traffic that wants to turn right, to first turn left (potentially with a slip road) and then turn around at the next roundabout.
We have one fairly locally on a road where people will tank along and then have an accident trying to accommodate traffic joining in l2 where they are expecting the slower moving traffic to wait until they can join l1. It has been proposed that the junction gets closed and traffic is sent a mile down the road to the nearest roundabout to turn around.I'd imagine these types of dangerous junctions/crossing are being phased out in areas with any traffic - ie closing the middle, forcing traffic that wants to turn right, to first turn left (potentially with a slip road) and then turn around at the next roundabout.
Funnily, there has been a lot of opposition from locals who begrudge adding a couple of miles to their journey and they are petitioning to create a roundabout in place of the junction. We’ll see whether that gains any traction!
Chris
Entering into Lane 2 is fraught with danger.
The problem neither driver knows what the other one is likely, or intending, to do, nor will the driver already on the dual carriageway know whether the joining car's driver has even seen them.
In an ideal world, with switched-on and capable drivers, it would be fine. With the numpties who drive on our roads, it's not. IMHO.
The problem neither driver knows what the other one is likely, or intending, to do, nor will the driver already on the dual carriageway know whether the joining car's driver has even seen them.
In an ideal world, with switched-on and capable drivers, it would be fine. With the numpties who drive on our roads, it's not. IMHO.
Vipers said:
shambolic said:
Out of interest what part of the A82 is this?When the A1 had plenty of these, I once saw a Porsche try to do this only to spin all the way round and end up facing the traffic in the outside lane. It must have been his lucky day as everyone (including me) was aware enough to stop safely and he was able to turn round and set off in the right direction.
I wonder if he started having second thoughts about rear engined cars….?
I wonder if he started having second thoughts about rear engined cars….?
shambolic said:
Vipers said:
Between Dunglass roundabout and Erskine Bridge. We have one exit like that up here, guessing the planners were thinking you could exit your property and turn left or right, and didn’t anticipate someone doing what you did.
Hope you getting better now.
The one I mentioned up here, NSL as well.
Edited by Vipers on Tuesday 18th July 10:15
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