Elon Musk ordered Tesla software to be optimistic on range
Discussion
Elon Musk in the firing line for allegedly ordering tweaks to the range calculators to ge extremely optimistic.
When owners complained and booked in for servicing, a special team was set up to handle these away from the service.
Given diesel gate, I wonder if there will be class action kaw suits?
When owners complained and booked in for servicing, a special team was set up to handle these away from the service.
Given diesel gate, I wonder if there will be class action kaw suits?
cootuk said:
Elon Musk in the firing line for allegedly ordering tweaks to the range calculators to ge extremely optimistic.
When owners complained and booked in for servicing, a special team was set up to handle these away from the service.
Given diesel gate, I wonder if there will be class action kaw suits?
In comparing it to diesel gate... It's not really the same unless Tesla either claimed range in excess of official test figures (they obviously haven't) or set the car up in some way to manage more miles during official tests than it could ever achieve outside of those tests.When owners complained and booked in for servicing, a special team was set up to handle these away from the service.
Given diesel gate, I wonder if there will be class action kaw suits?
I can't see it tbh. Optimism isn't a crime or miss-selling, so long as official figures back it up. You can't sue someone for being optimistic that something proven to be achievable is achievable.
Seems more analogous to manufacturers tuning their engines to give good consumption results on the WLTP cycle than getting their cars to explicitly recognise when they are being tested and alter their behaviour. The former is done by all manufacturers and is perfectly legal, the latter is very much not legal. If nothing else, it would be almost impossible to do anything analogous to diesel-gate in an EV because they're so simple.
Edited by kambites on Friday 28th July 11:09
TooLateForAName said:
Nah.
I can't believe that St Elon would ever mislead or overpromise on anything.
He has far too much integrity to be in any way dishonest.
After all, as *founder* (cough) of spaceX and Tesla he has always been totally straight in all his claims for all his products.
Cybertruck: "This window will stop a bullet!"I can't believe that St Elon would ever mislead or overpromise on anything.
He has far too much integrity to be in any way dishonest.
After all, as *founder* (cough) of spaceX and Tesla he has always been totally straight in all his claims for all his products.
How is this any different to ICE car manufacturers publishing fuel mileage figures which are impossible to achieve in the real world? It's high time an independent body was set up to test all vehicles in real world conditions and publish the figures they achieve and also mandate these to be used anywhere that manufacturers' inaccurate data is currently used.
MitchT said:
How is this any different to ICE car manufacturers publishing fuel mileage figures which are impossible to achieve in the real world? It's high time an independent body was set up to test all vehicles in real world conditions and publish the figures they achieve and also mandate these to be used anywhere that manufacturers' inaccurate data is currently used.
What do you think the WLTP tests are? OK the tests aren't performed by an independent body, but I've seen no evidence that who performs the tests would make any difference to the results. What your proposing is basically exactly what we already have, but possibly with slightly modified test parameters. Edited by kambites on Friday 28th July 11:24
TheDeuce said:
TooLateForAName said:
Nah.
I can't believe that St Elon would ever mislead or overpromise on anything.
He has far too much integrity to be in any way dishonest.
After all, as *founder* (cough) of spaceX and Tesla he has always been totally straight in all his claims for all his products.
Cybertruck: "This window will stop a bullet!"I can't believe that St Elon would ever mislead or overpromise on anything.
He has far too much integrity to be in any way dishonest.
After all, as *founder* (cough) of spaceX and Tesla he has always been totally straight in all his claims for all his products.
Stories spreading now that many people never achieved the expected range on Teslas, now found to be that the software was programmed to be overoptimistic, and a "diversion team" was created to handle the hundreds of complaints.
Reuters...
"...Tesla reportedly created a secretive “Diversion Team” tasked with trying to quickly divert and cancel as many appointments for range-related issues as possible. The unit, according to a Reuters investigation, was reportedly responsible for closing hundreds of cases per week of upset Tesla owners complaining about range performance. Those cars were often working properly but simply failed to meet Tesla’s inflated and exaggerated driving range estimates for its fleet of vehicles..."
Reuters...
"...Tesla reportedly created a secretive “Diversion Team” tasked with trying to quickly divert and cancel as many appointments for range-related issues as possible. The unit, according to a Reuters investigation, was reportedly responsible for closing hundreds of cases per week of upset Tesla owners complaining about range performance. Those cars were often working properly but simply failed to meet Tesla’s inflated and exaggerated driving range estimates for its fleet of vehicles..."
cootuk said:
Stories spreading now that many people never achieved the expected range on Teslas, now found to be that the software was programmed to be overoptimistic, and a "diversion team" was created to handle the hundreds of complaints.
Reuters...
"...Tesla reportedly created a secretive “Diversion Team” tasked with trying to quickly divert and cancel as many appointments for range-related issues as possible. The unit, according to a Reuters investigation, was reportedly responsible for closing hundreds of cases per week of upset Tesla owners complaining about range performance. Those cars were often working properly but simply failed to meet Tesla’s inflated and exaggerated driving range estimates for its fleet of vehicles..."
I still don't get it. All EV's tend to be extremely optimistic in terms of the range you could get, but in reality people drive them in a pretty carefree manner because they're cheap to refill. When I first got my EV the range display said I'd get around 290 miles, which is the WLTP. After a few weeks of driving, it gradually came down to reality - 230ish miles.Reuters...
"...Tesla reportedly created a secretive “Diversion Team” tasked with trying to quickly divert and cancel as many appointments for range-related issues as possible. The unit, according to a Reuters investigation, was reportedly responsible for closing hundreds of cases per week of upset Tesla owners complaining about range performance. Those cars were often working properly but simply failed to meet Tesla’s inflated and exaggerated driving range estimates for its fleet of vehicles..."
I can understand a lot of people feeling that may be an oversell or a fault and calling to ask why their car was losing range. I can equally understand setting up a dedicated team to to explain and put to bed such queries.
What I can't understand is the word 'secretive'.. Are Tesla supposed to put out a press release each time they change their back office workflow? Obviously if you have a very common reason for customers contacting you, you build a team around that to deal with the contacts as efficiently as possible. What else would Tesla do
More to the point, give range estimates from the car have to learn the drivers style before being able to give a reliable estimate, what figure other than WLTP or close to it should they use as a starting point?
TheDeuce said:
cootuk said:
Stories spreading now that many people never achieved the expected range on Teslas, now found to be that the software was programmed to be overoptimistic, and a "diversion team" was created to handle the hundreds of complaints.
Reuters...
"...Tesla reportedly created a secretive “Diversion Team” tasked with trying to quickly divert and cancel as many appointments for range-related issues as possible. The unit, according to a Reuters investigation, was reportedly responsible for closing hundreds of cases per week of upset Tesla owners complaining about range performance. Those cars were often working properly but simply failed to meet Tesla’s inflated and exaggerated driving range estimates for its fleet of vehicles..."
I still don't get it. All EV's tend to be extremely optimistic in terms of the range you could get, but in reality people drive them in a pretty carefree manner because they're cheap to refill. When I first got my EV the range display said I'd get around 290 miles, which is the WLTP. After a few weeks of driving, it gradually came down to reality - 230ish miles.Reuters...
"...Tesla reportedly created a secretive “Diversion Team” tasked with trying to quickly divert and cancel as many appointments for range-related issues as possible. The unit, according to a Reuters investigation, was reportedly responsible for closing hundreds of cases per week of upset Tesla owners complaining about range performance. Those cars were often working properly but simply failed to meet Tesla’s inflated and exaggerated driving range estimates for its fleet of vehicles..."
I can understand a lot of people feeling that may be an oversell or a fault and calling to ask why their car was losing range. I can equally understand setting up a dedicated team to to explain and put to bed such queries.
What I can't understand is the word 'secretive'.. Are Tesla supposed to put out a press release each time they change their back office workflow? Obviously if you have a very common reason for customers contacting you, you build a team around that to deal with the contacts as efficiently as possible. What else would Tesla do
More to the point, give range estimates from the car have to learn the drivers style before being able to give a reliable estimate, what figure other than WLTP or close to it should they use as a starting point?
Tribal Chestnut said:
Not achieving a deliberately ‘programmed to be overoptimistic’ range and not achieving a best-case range are notably different things.
Who's decided that it's "overoptimistic"? Perhaps it's the muppet who thinks that he can drive his car 4 up with luggage in single digit temperatures at highway speeds and get the advertised range numbers that is referenced in the article?
SWoll said:
Tribal Chestnut said:
Not achieving a deliberately ‘programmed to be overoptimistic’ range and not achieving a best-case range are notably different things.
Who's decided that it's "overoptimistic"? Perhaps it's the muppet who thinks that he can drive his car 4 up with luggage in single digit temperatures at highway speeds and get the advertised range numbers that is referenced in the article?
This blatantly wouldn't be a story at all if it concerned any EV other than Tesla.
More on it
"...Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,” the source told Reuters. “When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.”
These range estimates were optimistic, and when the vehicle dropped below 50% SoC, its algorithm started to present more realistic predictions, dropping the range much more quickly..."
And
"...Jonathan Elfalan, Edmunds vehicle testing director, says that it has continued to test EVs since 2021 and no Tesla vehicle has met its EPA estimated range.
“They've gotten really good at exploiting the rule book and maximizing certain points to work in their favor involving EPA tests,” said Elfalan in a statement to Reuters. Elfalan said that by working the system, Tesla could potentially “misrepresent what their customers will experience with their vehicles.”
South Korean officials fined Tesla $2.2 million earlier this year after it deemed that Tesla exaggerated the "driving ranges of its cars on a single charge, their fuel cost-effectiveness compared to gasoline vehicles as well as the performance of its Superchargers.".."
So it's within the rules, but how far can you bend rules before they snap?
I wonder if there will be a class action in the US as more details emerge if people bought assuming the ranges were an accurate estimate?
"...Elon wanted to show good range numbers when fully charged,” the source told Reuters. “When you buy a car off the lot seeing 350-mile, 400-mile range, it makes you feel good.”
These range estimates were optimistic, and when the vehicle dropped below 50% SoC, its algorithm started to present more realistic predictions, dropping the range much more quickly..."
And
"...Jonathan Elfalan, Edmunds vehicle testing director, says that it has continued to test EVs since 2021 and no Tesla vehicle has met its EPA estimated range.
“They've gotten really good at exploiting the rule book and maximizing certain points to work in their favor involving EPA tests,” said Elfalan in a statement to Reuters. Elfalan said that by working the system, Tesla could potentially “misrepresent what their customers will experience with their vehicles.”
South Korean officials fined Tesla $2.2 million earlier this year after it deemed that Tesla exaggerated the "driving ranges of its cars on a single charge, their fuel cost-effectiveness compared to gasoline vehicles as well as the performance of its Superchargers.".."
So it's within the rules, but how far can you bend rules before they snap?
I wonder if there will be a class action in the US as more details emerge if people bought assuming the ranges were an accurate estimate?
As this primarily concerns the original Tesla Roadster, does this have any implications about Tesla's failed lawsuit against Top Gear? i
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2013/152.h...
The case was dismissed on the basis that no one in their right mind would consider the Top Gear assertions of range were based on real world driving, rather than Tesla's claims of a range of about 200 miles being inaccurate.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-repor...
Original ad with range claims:
https://youtu.be/w1C44JQU7Pc
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2013/152.h...
The case was dismissed on the basis that no one in their right mind would consider the Top Gear assertions of range were based on real world driving, rather than Tesla's claims of a range of about 200 miles being inaccurate.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-repor...
Original ad with range claims:
https://youtu.be/w1C44JQU7Pc
paradigital said:
It's not what you drive, but how you drive.
My Model 3 Perf seems pretty close to claimed figured, but my usage happens to work out that my drives are pretty efficient, especially in summer.
Mine was nowhere near, but then I never drove it with any consideration for range or efficiency as figured why get the Performance model if that's the plan? My Model 3 Perf seems pretty close to claimed figured, but my usage happens to work out that my drives are pretty efficient, especially in summer.
Musk boasts of making x (RIP twitter) the 'everything app' including banking facilities. Hmm. Customers and partners need to trust a business to hand over that much power.
I'm out.
The Reuters story seems totally in keeping with Musk's MO. Check the source: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-repor...
Quote:
"Jonathan Elfalan, vehicle testing director for the automotive website Edmunds.com, reached a similar conclusion to Pannone after an extensive examination of vehicles from Tesla and other major automakers, including Ford, General Motors, Hyundai and Porsche.
All five Tesla models tested by Edmunds failed to achieve their advertised range, the website reported in February 2021. All but one of 10 other models from other manufacturers exceeded their advertised range"
I'm out.
The Reuters story seems totally in keeping with Musk's MO. Check the source: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-repor...
Quote:
"Jonathan Elfalan, vehicle testing director for the automotive website Edmunds.com, reached a similar conclusion to Pannone after an extensive examination of vehicles from Tesla and other major automakers, including Ford, General Motors, Hyundai and Porsche.
All five Tesla models tested by Edmunds failed to achieve their advertised range, the website reported in February 2021. All but one of 10 other models from other manufacturers exceeded their advertised range"
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