The Alpine implosion
Discussion
Where to begin with this one, I can't be sure of timelines, but from memory, we had Cyril Abitaleboul go as team principal, Alain Prost dropped as an advisor, we had the Piastri contract saga last year and now Otmar Szafnauer and Alan Permaine gone and Pat Fry being poached by Williams and some sort of weird restructuring at the top of the Renault/Alpine tree.
Then Prost slated Larent Rossi and his management style and in a (pre-departure) interview Otmar said he wouldn't have publicly criticised the team they way Rossi did (maybe the final straw?) and now in the article below Cyril is sticking the boot into his old boss, all 3 saying similar things and making Rossi out to be the problem.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/abiteboul-alpin...
This could be a co-ordinated and unfair attack on Rossi by bitter ex-employees or could their sackings/leaving by mutual consent be a desperate bid by Rossi to be seen to be in control/doing something when he is in fact the problem?
I think Rossi will be gone soon in a final clearout at Alpine and they will either need to start rebuilding (with all the implications of that decision, financial and time-wise) or decide to pull the plug (an opening for Andretti?). There seems little scope for anything in between at this stage.
Would be interested to hear views from others who may know more than me. I just find it incredible that in a sport which needs excellence at every level in order to succeed, there can be such seemingly inept Management at the top. Also, what should Alpine do next?
Then Prost slated Larent Rossi and his management style and in a (pre-departure) interview Otmar said he wouldn't have publicly criticised the team they way Rossi did (maybe the final straw?) and now in the article below Cyril is sticking the boot into his old boss, all 3 saying similar things and making Rossi out to be the problem.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/abiteboul-alpin...
This could be a co-ordinated and unfair attack on Rossi by bitter ex-employees or could their sackings/leaving by mutual consent be a desperate bid by Rossi to be seen to be in control/doing something when he is in fact the problem?
I think Rossi will be gone soon in a final clearout at Alpine and they will either need to start rebuilding (with all the implications of that decision, financial and time-wise) or decide to pull the plug (an opening for Andretti?). There seems little scope for anything in between at this stage.
Would be interested to hear views from others who may know more than me. I just find it incredible that in a sport which needs excellence at every level in order to succeed, there can be such seemingly inept Management at the top. Also, what should Alpine do next?
patmahe said:
I think Rossi will be gone soon in a final clearout at Alpine
Rossi is already gone from Alpine, shuffled sideways within Renault. The new Alpine CEO is another ex-Ferrari man, Philippe Krief, appointed last week.Coincidentally, his old colleague Mattia Binotto is currently 'seeking new opportunities', just as Alpine are seeking a new TP and TD, both roles he performed at Ferrari...
thegreenhell said:
patmahe said:
I think Rossi will be gone soon in a final clearout at Alpine
Rossi is already gone from Alpine, shuffled sideways within Renault. The new Alpine CEO is another ex-Ferrari man, Philippe Krief, appointed last week.Coincidentally, his old colleague Mattia Binotto is currently 'seeking new opportunities', just as Alpine are seeking a new TP and TD, both roles he performed at Ferrari...
The whole thing at Alpine seems very knee jerk and political and makes the team's and Renault's upper management look very incompetent if they originally appointed all of these people who have suddenly been deemed unsuitable. I can't imagine this type of thing happening at Red Bull or Mercedes, the types of teams that Alpine say they want to emulate, patience and continuity with minor adjustments along the way seems to be key to success in F1.
I still wonder that, if Andretti and GM keep getting knocked back in their F1 application, they could make Renault an offer for the team?
The French company doesn’t appear to be enjoying it too much, does it? I think the Renault board seriously thought they’d be fighting with Mercedes and Ferrari by now, rather than scrapping around for the final couple of points.
The French company doesn’t appear to be enjoying it too much, does it? I think the Renault board seriously thought they’d be fighting with Mercedes and Ferrari by now, rather than scrapping around for the final couple of points.
The thing with Renault/Alpine is they don't seem to employ the best people for the job. In order to move forward they need to get better people. They are expecting to make moves forward with the car but their staff aren't good enough to make that leap. They should be trying to take the best from the other teams but they don't do that.
That's what it seems like since the Alonso era to me. They've just struggled to get the best and then they just chop heads as soon as it goes wrong ever so slightly.
That's what it seems like since the Alonso era to me. They've just struggled to get the best and then they just chop heads as soon as it goes wrong ever so slightly.
They have had bad results so far and so they have decided to make changes.
All that glorious 5 year plan stuff sounds plausible till you see other teams make giant leaps.
Naturally a lot of the press are buddies with some of the old lags so its shock horror! but who should go?
Football fans normally go after the owners, but f
k it just sack people till you get someone good lol.
All that glorious 5 year plan stuff sounds plausible till you see other teams make giant leaps.
Naturally a lot of the press are buddies with some of the old lags so its shock horror! but who should go?
Football fans normally go after the owners, but f
k it just sack people till you get someone good lol.Implosion? This has all the hallmarks of a deliberate disassembly of a team to me, not some accidental collapse.
I think they're clean-slating the team in readiness for sale. Wouldn't surprise me one bit as I have no clue what positive impact the team has had for Renault or Alpine - yes, F1 publicity is considerable win or lose, but when you actually make cars the publicity does need to be mostly positive in terms of car reliability, performance etc, and in the case of Renault particularly, the PU that nobody else on the grid wants is not exactly putting their engineering prowess in a good light in terms of broad public perception.
I think they're clean-slating the team in readiness for sale. Wouldn't surprise me one bit as I have no clue what positive impact the team has had for Renault or Alpine - yes, F1 publicity is considerable win or lose, but when you actually make cars the publicity does need to be mostly positive in terms of car reliability, performance etc, and in the case of Renault particularly, the PU that nobody else on the grid wants is not exactly putting their engineering prowess in a good light in terms of broad public perception.
CoolHands said:
Teams that are too political always have problems. Like ferrari 
I think it’s not unknown for French companies to operate in this way so it’s probably what’s occurred in the f1 team.
Yup! It’s really difficult for an OEM to put someone in charge of the team and just let them get on with it. The mentality required for prototype racing, is orders of magnitude different from anything else they do as a company. I think it’s not unknown for French companies to operate in this way so it’s probably what’s occurred in the f1 team.It’s a massive credit to Mercedes, that they managed to do this so successfully with Brawn and then Wolff. Obviously winning helps a lot, as does inventing technology applicable to road car engines - oh, and eventually turning a profit on the operation!
Sandpit Steve said:
The mentality required for prototype racing, is orders of magnitude different from anything else they do as a company.
One of the big hurdles is that most people just don't want to touch the whole business; short contract horizons where the whole thing can evaporate as marketing budgets shift, and the really big hurdle; if you're in a role that requires 5 days plus every race weekend then it becomes stupidly demanding and too many hours whatever the money.One of my siblings was headhunted for a role recently at a team (a good team too, and a good very high level job) and after getting past the 'that'd be cool' stage it just wasn't tempting. Great job, good money, high profile, but made no sense to do it as you really had to live in the job in a way that isn't required for anything equivalent and it just wasn't rational to take on.
The whole thing of building and running prototype racing isn't that different from a lot of other activity (especially the rapid churn money sucking engineering development side) but it's the sheer constant in-season timesuck involved that means you have to want to do it for 'fun' and that really limits your talent pool, especially for anyone a bit older who's grown out of that or got a family.
pquinn said:
Sandpit Steve said:
The mentality required for prototype racing, is orders of magnitude different from anything else they do as a company.
One of the big hurdles is that most people just don't want to touch the whole business; short contract horizons where the whole thing can evaporate as marketing budgets shift, and the really big hurdle; if you're in a role that requires 5 days plus every race weekend then it becomes stupidly demanding and too many hours whatever the money.One of my siblings was headhunted for a role recently at a team (a good team too, and a good very high level job) and after getting past the 'that'd be cool' stage it just wasn't tempting. Great job, good money, high profile, but made no sense to do it as you really had to live in the job in a way that isn't required for anything equivalent and it just wasn't rational to take on.
It think it was Steve Machet (author of the Mechanics Tale) who described why corporates seldom thrive in F1. He described a situation at Stewart GP back in the 90s where they might find they're out of a grommet or screw or some other important but standard component, Someone would grab readies from petty cash and head off the nearest B&Q and then crack on. When Ford took over, such practices was stopped with everything needing purchase orders and sourcing through accredited Tier 1 suppliers, very few of whom were able to provide some of the more elaborate provisions needed. They lost around 8-months whilst suppliers the team had been using for years had to go through the process of getting on the Tier 1roster for Ford.
Quite a good article by Gary Anderson on this and why it doesn't really work.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-anderson-lesso...
Has a good list of who's gone from Alpine recently...
https://the-race.com/formula-1/gary-anderson-lesso...
Has a good list of who's gone from Alpine recently...
StevieBee said:
It think it was Steve Machet (author of the Mechanics Tale) who described why corporates seldom thrive in F1. He described a situation at Stewart GP back in the 90s where they might find they're out of a grommet or screw or some other important but standard component, Someone would grab readies from petty cash and head off the nearest B&Q and then crack on. When Ford took over, such practices was stopped with everything needing purchase orders and sourcing through accredited Tier 1 suppliers, very few of whom were able to provide some of the more elaborate provisions needed. They lost around 8-months whilst suppliers the team had been using for years had to go through the process of getting on the Tier 1roster for Ford.
I can see the argument for doing things the quick way, and it's an argument I've used myself, but there's a place for using the expensive 'corporate' route of accredited suppliers & all the paperwork. For some jobs it doesn’t matter but a lot of the time you do need the traceability & QA for critical components rather than 'that'll do', especially these days with the amount of substandard dross in supply chains. Man in shed operations don't always recognise the potential issues in the same way that a more established business does. Been there & done that using the same suppliers the F1 teams use & it doesn't have to be onerous if you do it the right way. The only real failure in a big corporate is you're more likely to trip over a jobsworth rather than getting the process tailored to what you need.
If anything a lot of the time I bet the bigger problem is getting suppliers to quote at all, they can get a bit funny when you tell them you only need a miniscule number of whatever you're buying and can't be sure how many you'll need next time, if ever.
Ultimately none of what goes on in F1 is particularly unique, it's just a lot higher profile & pressured for no guaranteed return.
Always mystifies me how OEM's think they can change the recipe to win because it suits them.
1. Appoint strong team manager. Horner, Wolff, Todt are good examples. Give that strong manager autonomy.
2. Appoint strong lead driver. I like Ocon and Gasly but........really? Seems like they let their star driver go to Mclaren this year.....
3. Invest money as required.
4. Accept it will take time. Keep faith.
1. Appoint strong team manager. Horner, Wolff, Todt are good examples. Give that strong manager autonomy.
2. Appoint strong lead driver. I like Ocon and Gasly but........really? Seems like they let their star driver go to Mclaren this year.....
3. Invest money as required.
4. Accept it will take time. Keep faith.
StevieBee said:
pquinn said:
Sandpit Steve said:
The mentality required for prototype racing, is orders of magnitude different from anything else they do as a company.
One of the big hurdles is that most people just don't want to touch the whole business; short contract horizons where the whole thing can evaporate as marketing budgets shift, and the really big hurdle; if you're in a role that requires 5 days plus every race weekend then it becomes stupidly demanding and too many hours whatever the money.One of my siblings was headhunted for a role recently at a team (a good team too, and a good very high level job) and after getting past the 'that'd be cool' stage it just wasn't tempting. Great job, good money, high profile, but made no sense to do it as you really had to live in the job in a way that isn't required for anything equivalent and it just wasn't rational to take on.
It think it was Steve Machet (author of the Mechanics Tale) who described why corporates seldom thrive in F1. He described a situation at Stewart GP back in the 90s where they might find they're out of a grommet or screw or some other important but standard component, Someone would grab readies from petty cash and head off the nearest B&Q and then crack on. When Ford took over, such practices was stopped with everything needing purchase orders and sourcing through accredited Tier 1 suppliers, very few of whom were able to provide some of the more elaborate provisions needed. They lost around 8-months whilst suppliers the team had been using for years had to go through the process of getting on the Tier 1roster for Ford.
In the end I turned it down, for similar reasons to the poster with the sibling and the above. The money would be ok/good with the bonuses, but the working life balance would be very “unbalanced”. I was also aware that significant attention would come my way should things be less than optimal. The F1 world can be a very manic place.
It’s a mentality you need to fully buy into because you know the lunacy that comes with it and the pressures on your life.
So I stuck to stuff in the sky instead
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