Rejecting a dealer used car based on a few faults?
Discussion
Afternoon all,
Bit of an irritating situation has developed with a new car which I'd like some advice on.... what would you do?
Bought a new (to me) car 2 weeks ago, having gone to view it the previous weekend at a dealer, They're a 5* rated dealer 2 hours from me and my then-current car had come from them too. After 2 faultless years I fancied a change to something slightly older but easier to maintain, as a keeper rather than staying on the increasing modernity merry go round.
I went to view the car knowing it was a little scruffy, which I didn't mind as its to use not to show, and I know a good bodyshop.
Having view it and test driven it, there were a few niggles which they promised to sort in the week before collection - 2 new batteries as the old ones were dying, a tracking fix, and a service.
The following week I traded in my old car with them, got a price I was happy with, collected the new car and went on my way. The tracking was fine as I drove home.
I got home, after said 2 hour trip, opened the bonnet and found the old batteries, which I recognised the branding on, and some obviously not changed oil and filter cartridge. I know I should have checked before driving off, but I'd already travelled down there to collect, and given my faultless previous came from them I trusted them. The car also came with a 3 month warranty, but one where it must be returned to them to sort any issues.
Now, to be very fair to them, they apologised and paid me, without arguing, for the cost of 2 new batteries and the projected cost of an indy garage service. I can't fault them on that.
But, the car now has a horrendously screeching aux belt from cold start which upon inspection should be 2 belts and obviously not noisy. Minor but easily fixed, at a cost, during the service I have got booked for next week which is the first opening I had with a garage I trust.
However, this is the biggie - now it seems to be drinking the contents of the header tank upon cooldown (it's a separate tank with a breather into the radiator cap), about half a litre after each trip which may only be a few miles.
No visible leaks I can see under the bonnet or under the car.
If it looks like HGF and walks like HGF....?
I tried a home sniff test kit but the result is inconclusive as I couldn't get it to seal properly in the narrow radiator opening.
To my mind though, even if it isnt that, it's still got a big water leak that's got to be sorted so it won't cook on a long trip. Which is inconvenient to say the least. And, even if it settles down and proves reliable afterwards, at this point I'm just not going to have a feeling of trust in it. I do a lot of cross-country jaunts and towing and want something I can depend on.
Do you think I'd have a case for straight rejection saying I no longer have faith in the car? Does this apply as strongly to a used car dealer as a new car? I assume even if not warrantied, they'd have to prove the fault wasn't present at purchase which would be difficult given I've only done 350 miles since then.
If I could reject for a refund of sale price minus the as yet unfulfilled service (given I've already put about 100 quid of new wipers, plates, bulbs and a load cover etc on the car to tidy it up) I'd walk away and find another one to buy with eyes wider open, as there are a few other less scruffy but slightly more expensive ones around. Stick or twist point will be the service, as I've booked it in for a very major service at double the cost of what they'd given me the cash for so I knew the fresh intervals of all vital parts. If it's going to be a problem child rather than a keeper, I don't really want to eat that cost difference!
What do we think?
Bit of an irritating situation has developed with a new car which I'd like some advice on.... what would you do?
Bought a new (to me) car 2 weeks ago, having gone to view it the previous weekend at a dealer, They're a 5* rated dealer 2 hours from me and my then-current car had come from them too. After 2 faultless years I fancied a change to something slightly older but easier to maintain, as a keeper rather than staying on the increasing modernity merry go round.
I went to view the car knowing it was a little scruffy, which I didn't mind as its to use not to show, and I know a good bodyshop.
Having view it and test driven it, there were a few niggles which they promised to sort in the week before collection - 2 new batteries as the old ones were dying, a tracking fix, and a service.
The following week I traded in my old car with them, got a price I was happy with, collected the new car and went on my way. The tracking was fine as I drove home.
I got home, after said 2 hour trip, opened the bonnet and found the old batteries, which I recognised the branding on, and some obviously not changed oil and filter cartridge. I know I should have checked before driving off, but I'd already travelled down there to collect, and given my faultless previous came from them I trusted them. The car also came with a 3 month warranty, but one where it must be returned to them to sort any issues.
Now, to be very fair to them, they apologised and paid me, without arguing, for the cost of 2 new batteries and the projected cost of an indy garage service. I can't fault them on that.
But, the car now has a horrendously screeching aux belt from cold start which upon inspection should be 2 belts and obviously not noisy. Minor but easily fixed, at a cost, during the service I have got booked for next week which is the first opening I had with a garage I trust.
However, this is the biggie - now it seems to be drinking the contents of the header tank upon cooldown (it's a separate tank with a breather into the radiator cap), about half a litre after each trip which may only be a few miles.
No visible leaks I can see under the bonnet or under the car.
If it looks like HGF and walks like HGF....?
I tried a home sniff test kit but the result is inconclusive as I couldn't get it to seal properly in the narrow radiator opening.
To my mind though, even if it isnt that, it's still got a big water leak that's got to be sorted so it won't cook on a long trip. Which is inconvenient to say the least. And, even if it settles down and proves reliable afterwards, at this point I'm just not going to have a feeling of trust in it. I do a lot of cross-country jaunts and towing and want something I can depend on.
Do you think I'd have a case for straight rejection saying I no longer have faith in the car? Does this apply as strongly to a used car dealer as a new car? I assume even if not warrantied, they'd have to prove the fault wasn't present at purchase which would be difficult given I've only done 350 miles since then.
If I could reject for a refund of sale price minus the as yet unfulfilled service (given I've already put about 100 quid of new wipers, plates, bulbs and a load cover etc on the car to tidy it up) I'd walk away and find another one to buy with eyes wider open, as there are a few other less scruffy but slightly more expensive ones around. Stick or twist point will be the service, as I've booked it in for a very major service at double the cost of what they'd given me the cash for so I knew the fresh intervals of all vital parts. If it's going to be a problem child rather than a keeper, I don't really want to eat that cost difference!
What do we think?
Edited by ChemicalChaos on Friday 11th August 16:10
For me, it depends on the dealer and not on what your rights are.
As a buyer from a trader you have lots of protected rights......but implementing them can be hassle and grief that maybe you don't want/need.
So, speak to the dealer. If they play ball with your rejection - reject it. A lot of dealers don't want bad publicity, if they're reputable, they may just take the car back and make it an easy process.
If they really dig their heels in, it's decision time. You need to weigh up the hassle/grief/cost of the possibility of further reliability issues with rejecting the car against a dealer not participating/accepting of the process.
Someone will come along in a minute and say it's easy, just file a small claim, drop the car off an wait for your cheque. But, in reality, it can be hard work.
But first of all, talk to the dealer. Say you're not happy and you've lost trust in it. Say your preference is for them to take it back and you walk away.
See what their reaction is and go from there.
As a buyer from a trader you have lots of protected rights......but implementing them can be hassle and grief that maybe you don't want/need.
So, speak to the dealer. If they play ball with your rejection - reject it. A lot of dealers don't want bad publicity, if they're reputable, they may just take the car back and make it an easy process.
If they really dig their heels in, it's decision time. You need to weigh up the hassle/grief/cost of the possibility of further reliability issues with rejecting the car against a dealer not participating/accepting of the process.
Someone will come along in a minute and say it's easy, just file a small claim, drop the car off an wait for your cheque. But, in reality, it can be hard work.
But first of all, talk to the dealer. Say you're not happy and you've lost trust in it. Say your preference is for them to take it back and you walk away.
See what their reaction is and go from there.
said:
However, this is the biggie - now it seems to be drinking the contents of the header tank upon cooldown (it's a separate tank with a breather into the radiator cap), about half a litre after each trip which may only be a few miles.
Just to clarify; You've got a radiator cap (that can be removed and thus top up coolant via it) and an additional tank that has a fluctuating level? (which it sounds like) And not a single reservoir/expansion tank?
If so the system is working as intended; Its a overflow tank, not a header tank.
As pressure in the system rises it will vent coolant into the overflow tank from the bypass pipe below the radiator cap. As the vehicle cools and the pressure equalises, the coolant will drop into the overflow tank back via the pipe in the rad, and you're not actually losing coolant. The overflow tank should have a nominal amount of coolant in it.
If you've topped this up, you're going to want to drain a good chunk of it as you're effectively over filling the system and it may not have enough space to vent correctly and you really will have HGF like symptoms like coolant spewing.
TheWokeBlob said:
said:
However, this is the biggie - now it seems to be drinking the contents of the header tank upon cooldown (it's a separate tank with a breather into the radiator cap), about half a litre after each trip which may only be a few miles.
Just to clarify; You've got a radiator cap (that can be removed and thus top up coolant via it) and an additional tank that has a fluctuating level? (which it sounds like) And not a single reservoir/expansion tank?
If so the system is working as intended; Its a overflow tank, not a header tank.
As pressure in the system rises it will vent coolant into the overflow tank from the bypass pipe below the radiator cap. As the vehicle cools and the pressure equalises, the coolant will drop into the overflow tank back via the pipe in the rad, and you're not actually losing coolant. The overflow tank should have a nominal amount of coolant in it.
If you've topped this up, you're going to want to drain a good chunk of it as you're effectively over filling the system and it may not have enough space to vent correctly and you really will have HGF like symptoms like coolant spewing.
To clarify.
It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
May or may not be relevant, but what is it? How old is it? What mileage has it done and what did you pay?
If it's a three year old five series BMW with 20k on it and costs £30k it's a bit of a different argument than a 13 year old Polo with 120k and paid £3k for.
The difference being that a head gasket is within the margin for error of the Beemer's value but a big slice of the Po-Low'sIf it's a three year old five series BMW with 20k on it and costs £30k it's a bit of a different argument than a 13 year old Polo with 120k and paid £3k for.
A head gasket failure can put a true shed 'beyond economical repair'.
ChemicalChaos said:
To clarify.
It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
The car has a significant cooling system fault.It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
Do you think that might be why it got traded in?
Dealers buy these things at risk, and have to fix them .
The fault could be a number of things. Head gasket. Radiator. Heater matrix. Some random bit of coolant plumbing.
Worth googling the vehicle model in question to see if there's a common fault.
If it's been driven while the coolant is low, a minor problem may become a serious one.
21st century cars have cooling systems chock full of plastic bits which go brittle over time.
15 years is design lifetime territory.
ChemicalChaos said:
To clarify.
It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
If that's the case send it back & have them repair it (assuming you like the car) your right to reject isn't affected ny giving them a chance to repair.It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
What car is it?
ZX10R NIN said:
ChemicalChaos said:
To clarify.
It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
If that's the case send it back & have them repair it (assuming you like the car) your right to reject isn't affected ny giving them a chance to repair.It's not an overflow per se, it's a separate header tank that fills and empties as the engine warms and cools.
The user manual for the car, as well as several other owners, say the level should always be between min and max marks on this tank. No matter is hot or cold.
If the tank is filled to the high mark when cold, after a drive it empties slightly to half then when cooled later on it's fully empty to the bottom, where the system aspirates coolant from. This is clearly not right.
The car is a luxury SUV, about 15 years old but still only 80 k miles and nearly £20k, so we're not talking she'd territory here.
What car is it?
I like the car as a model, but I no longer trust this specific example... Tine to make some phone calls on Monday!
I'm not naming the car to avoid potentially revealing the dealer, which would be unfair given they've been fair to me so far.
ChemicalChaos said:
Well my decision just got a lot easier as tonight on the way home the 5speed auto decided it would much rather be a 3 speed once warmed up.
I like the car as a model, but I no longer trust this specific example... Tine to make some phone calls on Monday!
I'm not naming the car to avoid potentially revealing the dealer, which would be unfair given they've been fair to me so far.
No problem I hope you get things sorted swiftly & easily I like the car as a model, but I no longer trust this specific example... Tine to make some phone calls on Monday!
I'm not naming the car to avoid potentially revealing the dealer, which would be unfair given they've been fair to me so far.
Thanks ZX10,
So, it appears on further research, it's a known fault for the heat exchanger to fail and dump coolant into the gearbox, which would explain both things.
The dealer has said to bring it back, they'll get it on a ramp and a have a look. However, not knowing how long it's been driven with "the forbidden strawberry milkshake" inside, I've no idea what damage has been done to the auto box so I definitely want to simply hand it back.
I'm pretty sure that despite them being very fair to me so far, dealer would prefer this to not be the case - can someone tell me please the specific chapter/section of consumer legislation allowing me to reject the car without trying a repair first?
Thanks in advance!
So, it appears on further research, it's a known fault for the heat exchanger to fail and dump coolant into the gearbox, which would explain both things.
The dealer has said to bring it back, they'll get it on a ramp and a have a look. However, not knowing how long it's been driven with "the forbidden strawberry milkshake" inside, I've no idea what damage has been done to the auto box so I definitely want to simply hand it back.
I'm pretty sure that despite them being very fair to me so far, dealer would prefer this to not be the case - can someone tell me please the specific chapter/section of consumer legislation allowing me to reject the car without trying a repair first?
Thanks in advance!
ChemicalChaos said:
Thanks ZX10,
So, it appears on further research, it's a known fault for the heat exchanger to fail and dump coolant into the gearbox, which would explain both things.
The dealer has said to bring it back, they'll get it on a ramp and a have a look. However, not knowing how long it's been driven with "the forbidden strawberry milkshake" inside, I've no idea what damage has been done to the auto box so I definitely want to simply hand it back.
I'm pretty sure that despite them being very fair to me so far, dealer would prefer this to not be the case - can someone tell me please the specific chapter/section of consumer legislation allowing me to reject the car without trying a repair first?
Thanks in advance!
Talk to the dealer first. Explain that you’ve lost trust in it. They’ll probably try to get you to accept a repair first, just be firm that you want out of it. So, it appears on further research, it's a known fault for the heat exchanger to fail and dump coolant into the gearbox, which would explain both things.
The dealer has said to bring it back, they'll get it on a ramp and a have a look. However, not knowing how long it's been driven with "the forbidden strawberry milkshake" inside, I've no idea what damage has been done to the auto box so I definitely want to simply hand it back.
I'm pretty sure that despite them being very fair to me so far, dealer would prefer this to not be the case - can someone tell me please the specific chapter/section of consumer legislation allowing me to reject the car without trying a repair first?
Thanks in advance!
If they are reputable, they should know that the cards are in your favour.
If they are obstructive, withdraw then re-group and research your consumer legislation rights.
Your first objective if you want to reject the car should be to get to a situation where the dealer takes it back without resorting to lawyers, consumer rights, etc.
If you google CRA2015 you will get a load of links to popular websites advising how it works and what to do.
Dealers often will be very cooporative and fair right up until the point you outright reject then they can turn. So dont assume for a minute they wont challenge a rejection. Remember they outright failed to replace bits promised up front, this could have been an honest mistake or....
So, google the above (or just search this sub forum there are literally hundreds of threads all similar) and make sure you record everything, anything agreed on the phone follow up with a letter sent special delivery (so it needs a signature) confirming everything - keep copies of all communication and know exactly what you are wanting and why you have the rights to do so.
Dealers often will be very cooporative and fair right up until the point you outright reject then they can turn. So dont assume for a minute they wont challenge a rejection. Remember they outright failed to replace bits promised up front, this could have been an honest mistake or....
So, google the above (or just search this sub forum there are literally hundreds of threads all similar) and make sure you record everything, anything agreed on the phone follow up with a letter sent special delivery (so it needs a signature) confirming everything - keep copies of all communication and know exactly what you are wanting and why you have the rights to do so.
Surely you just drive it till it fails, then drop it on them to repair?
Any decent loops of motorway nearby?
If it’s using all that coolant and the gearbox is lubricating with water I can’t imagine it’ll do many miles before it overheats the engine and gearbox and becomes a total loss?
Any decent loops of motorway nearby?
If it’s using all that coolant and the gearbox is lubricating with water I can’t imagine it’ll do many miles before it overheats the engine and gearbox and becomes a total loss?
Thanks all,
I forgot to update this yesterday - I limped the car back to them (although it seemed to behave slightly better, in sods law), the dealer was keen to repair it in their on site workshop and extend the 3 month warranty for another month.
I voiced my concerns about long term effects on the box considering that this was a car I'd intended to keep without having it go bang in 6 month's time.
Overall, the guy wasn't especially happy (as one would expect) but did take it back and refund me with good grace. Job jobbed, now I just need to find something else instead!
I forgot to update this yesterday - I limped the car back to them (although it seemed to behave slightly better, in sods law), the dealer was keen to repair it in their on site workshop and extend the 3 month warranty for another month.
I voiced my concerns about long term effects on the box considering that this was a car I'd intended to keep without having it go bang in 6 month's time.
Overall, the guy wasn't especially happy (as one would expect) but did take it back and refund me with good grace. Job jobbed, now I just need to find something else instead!
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff