Fair Probate charges from a Solictor?

[gulls]

Apologies if this has been covered many times before but I can't seem to find an answer.

I am trying to sorting out my late fathers estate for my mother. I finally have values for probate from several finanical instutions (investments, bank accounts etc) totalling 21 accounts.

A solicitor has quoted me £1,000+vat for the basic probate which is in line with what I expected.

The cost to do everything is quoted as in the region of £4,000 to £6,000+vat for the labour plus 1% of the gross value of the estate plus vat, so this adds up to a fairly substantial bill in the region of £12k.

I'm guessing it's normal to charge a percentate of the estate, but I don't understand why - surely the value is of little consequence as the labour rate should be enough recompense to cover the work done?

I am aware that I could do the probate myself, and I may well investigate this option (I just don't have much free time), so I'm just trying to get a feel if this is a fairly normal cost or if I should get some more quotes (the solicitor used is the one that held the will and is known to my mother and not the one I normally use).

[Armitage.Shanks]

gulls said:

I am aware that I could do the probate myself, and I may well investigate this option (I just don't have much free time), so I'm just trying to get a feel if this is a fairly normal cost or if I should get some more quotes (the solicitor used is the one that held the will and is known to my mother and not the one I normally use).

If somebody wanted me to pay £12k to undertake probate I'd soon find the time! On the occasions I've had to do it I have done it myself. Once where there was a will and one where there wasn't. Both I found were relatively straightforward once I nailed down where everything was and filled the form in.

If those fees include Executor duties then that could be a whole differeent ball game dependent on who gets what and what needs to be sold to pay for it. Then a solicitor will earn their fees.

[Mogul]

I’m guessing that your mother is your late father’s executor (and may be his principal beneficiary) and that you wish to help her complete the process?

If you have already collated details of those 21(!) accounts in his sole name, you will have done the bulk of the leg work already and probate could/should be relatively straightforward.

In similar circumstances, I did all of this for my father and used ‘myprobatepartner’ in Scotland (the cost was a few hundred) and it worked really well.

Just found ‘youcandoprobate’ via google which would appear to offer a similar service for England (no personal experience but reviews look good).

Certainly worth looking into the DIY route if you can as I would imagine that it is often quite straightforward on first death esp. if/when there is no IHT to pay.

You could also ask Co-op for a fixed price probate quote to benchmark the solicitors.

[eliot]

I got probate for my mums estate in a little over 6 weeks from death, which Included waiting nearly two weeks for the solicitors to find the original will, another week to kick the solicitors off the will and this was over the festive season.
It’s not difficult to do IF there’s a will and it’s a relatively simple estate.

I don’t understand why they feel the can charge a % of the estate’s value as commission - blatant exploitation imo

My mum’s solicitor put me and themselves on the will. which essentially meant the solicitor would have to do probate because they wouldn’t sign off my diy probate. So i had to pay £350 for them to write a single page letter resigning as an executor.

[Mr-B]

You could try someone like finalduties.co.uk, a probate broker, can't vouch for them as i haven't used them but might be worth a try if you want someone else to do it.

[Sheepshanks]

gulls said:

I'm guessing it's normal to charge a percentate of the estate, but I don't understand why - surely the value is of little consequence as the labour rate should be enough recompense to cover the work done?

A solictor local to us says:

"3. A percentage of the gross Estate, representing a responsibility fee which the Law Society has set as ½ % of the value of land and buildings and 1% of the rest of the gross Estate [where a Solicitor acts as sole Executor or joint Executor with another person the responsibility fee will be ¾ % of the value of the land and buildings and 1½ % of the rest of the gross estate]

We believe that our charges should reflect the benefit to the Estate of our work and be fair and reasonable. Therefore, provided that there are no unusual circumstances such as disagreements between the Beneficiaries, our total charges for Estates of over £250,000 will not exceed 4% of the gross Estate plus 20% VAT and may well be less."


So 1% is sounding like a bargain.


I've done it a couple of times, but both very straightforward. I work from home and set my own time, and my wife is pretty good at organising stuff and doing the legwork, so it was pretty easy. I'd be wary of taking it on if I had a busy job, young kids etc. - I couldn't see my adult daughters doing it at the current stage their lives are at, for example.

A solicitor did wife's Godfathers estate, which I was very glad of as he had a domineering distant relative. His estate was small, basically a house worth £150K, but he left a lot of small bequests and the residue split between wife and the relative. We'd been looking after him for a few years so did all the donkey work for the solictor. Solictor charged £2500 inc selling the house which I thought was very reasonable.

[The Leaper]

I have been an executor seven times and completed the process myself except in one case where a house needed to be sold where I used a solicitor for that purpose solely. Quite a lot of these estates involved manifold accounts...20 to 30 or so...and it was necessary to account for each one, of course. It can be a lot of work but it is straightforward as long as you maintain full transaction records etc as you progress. Be prepared to be hassled by beneficiaries, especially charities (they are dreadful), to get everything completed asap, although timewise a lot is outside your control.

R.

[Simpo Two]

gulls said:

The cost to do everything is quoted as in the region of £4,000 to £6,000+vat for the labour plus 1% of the gross value of the estate plus vat, so this adds up to a fairly substantial bill in the region of £12k.

I'm guessing it's normal to charge a percentate of the estate, but I don't understand why - surely the value is of little consequence as the labour rate should be enough recompense to cover the work done?

I am aware that I could do the probate myself, and I may well investigate this option (I just don't have much free time), so I'm just trying to get a feel if this is a fairly normal cost or if I should get some more quotes (the solicitor used is the one that held the will and is known to my mother and not the one I normally use).

In my limited experience the 'family solicitor' can be the worst option; they can be lazy and greedy because they think they'll get the work regardless.

In the above case, time, if justified, is fair enough, but then to take 1% of the whole estate for doing nothing extra is unacceptable IMHO. If an IFA does this he will tell you it's because of their insurance premiums - make your own mind up on that - I wonder if solicitors play the same game? But I would baulk at it.

My friendly bookkeeper, who also did my late mother's tax returns, charged me £300 to do her probate. So how about one of those as an option? You don't need to have any legal qualifications, it's just numbers and forms.

[The Leaper]

Mogul,

These days, 21 accounts is not exceptional. It's partly due to the government protection under the FCSC compensation scheme being £85,000, so multiple accounts exist to avoid exceeding this limit. That is not to say every account exceeds this limit.

R.

[LeonSCFR]

Long time lurker, first-time poster.

The SRA requires all firms to display pricing and timescales on their website to make it easier for clients to shop around; SRA Transparency Rules

Charging uplift (that 1% you mention) on an Estate is fairly common but if you have the time to search for one that doesn't, the Law Society's Find a Solicitor tool is quite good. You'll have to check the website of each firm though which will quickly get tedious.

As a rough idea, a local firm charges ~7k for a straightforward estate, ie one with a valid will, one property, no disputes or claims against the estate and no IHT.

[eliot]

LeonSCFR said:

As a rough idea, a local firm charges ~7k for a straightforward estate, ie one with a valid will, one property, no disputes or claims against the estate and no IHT.

Which can all be done DIY and online, apart from posting the will and death certificate off for next to nothing.

[LeonSCFR]

Yep, of course. Plenty of guides to assist and there's always someone who has done it and is willing to help if you get stuck.

[Sheepshanks]

eliot said:

Which can all be done DIY and online, apart from posting the will and death certificate off for next to nothing.

There's all sorts of reasons why people may not want to though.

And depending on how the bequests are written you could be doing a lot of work, and possibly some hassle, for not much personal saving.

[OldSkoolRS]

Sheepshanks said:

eliot said:

Which can all be done DIY and online, apart from posting the will and death certificate off for next to nothing.

There's all sorts of reasons why people may not want to though.

And depending on how the bequests are written you could be doing a lot of work, and possibly some hassle, for not much personal saving.

We are lucky to have a good and reasonably priced solicitor near us that we've used for Wills, MiL's flat sale and my late Dad's Probate. The charge for my Dad's Probate was just under £1,200 inc vat. I think that was a very reasonable amount as it wasn't a simple matter and took about 18 months after his death until Probate was finally issued.

There were considerable issues from my late Step Mum's solicitors (who had LPOA for her at the time of my Dad's death). I was still working at that time and while I see people doing DIY Probate as my wife did with her sister some years before for her Dad, but I don't think I could have dealt with the other solicitors. Including their attempts to claw back my Dad's (unfair, but he never changed it) 25% share of the proceeds of their house when it was sold for them both to go into care.

If the OP is anywhere near Wokingham I'd be happy to pass on our solicitor's details.

[Glosphil]

I did probate for my mother & f-i-l. The second was the most complex.

Not difficult if you take your time & double-check everything.

Even if you only spend a couple of hours on it each weekend you will still be faster than most solicitors.

[eliot]

OldSkoolRS said:

. The charge for my Dad's Probate was just under £1,200 inc vat. I think that was a very reasonable amount as it wasn't a simple matter and took about 18 months after his death until Probate was finally issued.

Yes i agree, that’s a fair price Did they include a % of the value of the estate?

Not sure we have seen a response from any lawyery types as to why they charge a commission on “winnings”?

My brother died in Oz during covid - i paid a local solicitor to deal with it, due to distance and not knowing or wanted to know the process. They didn’t add % to their fee from the estate value.

[OldSkoolRS]

eliot said:

Yes i agree, that’s a fair price Did they include a % of the value of the estate?

No % of the estate at all, just (well explained) breakdown of costs, some being fixed that even a DIY'r would have to pay.

I'd queried it after about 5 months as my sister was panicking that we might get a massive bill as there had been lots of back and forth between my Step Mum's solicitors. Our solicitors said that they 'hadn't done anything yet' and told me their biggest Probate charge had been about £2000, but for 'a very complicated case'.

[Sheepshanks]

eliot said:

Not sure we have seen a response from any lawyery types as to why they charge a commission on “winnings”?

Well, there's a cut and paste above from one of our local solictors (who I have no connection with and have never used) and that explains in percentages.

Although then the fees you and others have paid seem too little - unless there's a difference between getting Probate and full execution of the Will?

It seems solictors are bound by their regulator to list the price for dealing with these matters, but looking at a couple of others locally, the pricing is so vague as to be useless. The one I copied from could want £10K plus VAT for a £250K estate.

Being pedantic, I don't think it's a case of "commission on winnings". They charge a base fee, plus, say, 1%, but leave themselves massive scope by saying the overall fee will be no more than 4%.

[Mogul]

There are a different set of transparency rules in Scotland and estimates are available on request but fundamentally, I do believe that executory duties / confirmation (probate) presents a lucrative business opportunity for many firms. There will often be little push-back esp. with multiple heirs as an otherwise salty bill won't look quite so big when the beneficiaries consider their share of it is only 1/3rd, 1/4 etc.

If a solicitor is named on a will as a co-executor along with a family member, am I right in thinking that if the family is not happy with their fee estimate, the family member could ask the solicitor to resign and the original will would remain otherwise valid? A replacement solicitor could then be engaged, if required, or a full DIY process...

Edited by Mogul on Tuesday 22 August 18:24

[OldSkoolRS]

Just to clarify mine was just for Probate.


I was the executor so I've dealt with following the requirements of the Will (50/50 split between my sister and I, so fairly straightforward).

I'd previously been LPOA and cleared their house when they went into a nursing home. I figured that paying for Probate (50/50 with my sister) was worth it since my sister lives too far away to help with the previous matters.