Pressing Charges
Discussion
I watched a You Tube channel by a barrister who said that in the UK people don't get to decide whether to press charges or not, yet I have often watched the Police Interceptors and Motorway Cops and others were charges were dropped because the victim decided not to press charges, despite an assault for example being caught on CCTV.
Following the dropping of charges of a football player because key witnesses withdraw their cooperation, surely if evidence such as pictures or video recordings exists there is no need for witness/victim cooperation and in any case can't people be made to go to court an testify.
The police/CPS have the power to take cases to court without a complaint, example was the Chad Evens who got convicted for rape without a victim complaint - unless I got this wrong.
Following the dropping of charges of a football player because key witnesses withdraw their cooperation, surely if evidence such as pictures or video recordings exists there is no need for witness/victim cooperation and in any case can't people be made to go to court an testify.
The police/CPS have the power to take cases to court without a complaint, example was the Chad Evens who got convicted for rape without a victim complaint - unless I got this wrong.
The victim being forced to testify would be a bit ridiculous, especially with the typical delays in a sexual assault or rape charge. And if they testify in defence of the charged person then it all becomes a waste of time. What jury would convict if both victim and accused declared it a misunderstanding irrespective of the evidence shown? Beyond reasonable doubt is a high bar.
The courts are jammed up enough without cases with no realistic prospect of a conviction heading there.
It can both be true that in theory a victim doesn’t decide whether to press charges and also their wishes/likely intention at trial influencing a charging decision. It’s not binary.
The mere fact you are suggesting rape victims be forced to testify makes it clear you haven’t thought it through or simply have no grasp of how they might be feeling and why they might wish to not relive it years later in front of many people in a courtroom, irrespective of whether they can do so via video link etc.
The courts are jammed up enough without cases with no realistic prospect of a conviction heading there.
It can both be true that in theory a victim doesn’t decide whether to press charges and also their wishes/likely intention at trial influencing a charging decision. It’s not binary.
The mere fact you are suggesting rape victims be forced to testify makes it clear you haven’t thought it through or simply have no grasp of how they might be feeling and why they might wish to not relive it years later in front of many people in a courtroom, irrespective of whether they can do so via video link etc.
BlackWidow13 said:
Isn’t that just asking whether you’ll co-operate with them if they get things going?
The other end of it would be the police saying they don’t intend to press charges, and you trying to insist they do.
It was not phrased like that. I was phrased “do you want us to proceed with a prosecution?”The other end of it would be the police saying they don’t intend to press charges, and you trying to insist they do.
Several things can be true at once. UK law has no concept of a victim "pressing charges", unless you count rare private prosecutions. The decision on whether to charge someone is made by the police and/or CPS. However the views of the victim are one of several factors they will take into consideration when deciding to prosecute.
If a victim doesn't want to give evidence it is possible in principle to compel them However the would usually be a bad idea, both for moral reasons (it's wrong to force a victim to testify against their will, especially if the experience of testifying is likely to cause them further trauma) and practical ones (someone who really doesn't want to give evidence is unlikely to make a compelling witness).
Also the defence are inevitably going to want to question the victim about the contents of the recording (what happened beforehand, what did you mean when you said X etc etc) which leads to the spectre of the victim being compelled to give evidence by the defence, even if the prosecution were happy not to call her.
If a victim doesn't want to give evidence it is possible in principle to compel them However the would usually be a bad idea, both for moral reasons (it's wrong to force a victim to testify against their will, especially if the experience of testifying is likely to cause them further trauma) and practical ones (someone who really doesn't want to give evidence is unlikely to make a compelling witness).
Oliver Hardy said:
Following the dropping of charges of a football player because key witnesses withdraw their cooperation, surely if evidence such as pictures or video recordings exists there is no need for witness/victim cooperation...
Not necessarily as simple as that. The prosecuting barrister can't just play the jury a video that he found on Facebook. It has to be introduced by a witness who can speak to, and be cross-examined on, it's provenance, the context in which it was made etc. If it was made by a victim who now doesn't want to give evidence, that complicates introducing the video.Also the defence are inevitably going to want to question the victim about the contents of the recording (what happened beforehand, what did you mean when you said X etc etc) which leads to the spectre of the victim being compelled to give evidence by the defence, even if the prosecution were happy not to call her.
BlackWidow13 said:
AIUI the victim can’t force the police to bring a charge. That is the police’s call. But if the police decide to bring a charge they are usually reliant on the victim co-operating and giving evidence. So if the victim decides they want out, it’s game over.
It’s the call of the CPS not the police. ED209 said:
It’s the call of the CPS not the police.
Depends. For relatively minor offences it's the police who make the charging decision; this includes most motoring offences, but also things like assault (though not ABH/GBH etc).https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/charging-dir...
Aretnap said:
Depends. For relatively minor offences it's the police who make the charging decision; this includes most motoring offences, but also things like assault (though not ABH/GBH etc).
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/charging-dir...
Yes I know but I am not aware of a victimless prosecution ever being authorised by the police for a low level assault. The only cases where it would be are domestic violence cases which need a CPS decision.https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/charging-dir...
So many variables here but...
If a complainant initially makes a statement then the CPS can run with that statement whether they retract or not and I have done many trials where the evidence used is the bodycam footage of the statement being given, or the 999 call with the complainant or just the statement being read with a hostile witness.
If not statement/ official complaint is made in the first place then its less likely that a charge will follow. Many a time I get to the police station and the copper will tell me theres no complaint, a no comment usually follows and no further action after that. However if its on cctv or theres an eye witness who gives a statement then they can charge based on that evidence
If a complainant initially makes a statement then the CPS can run with that statement whether they retract or not and I have done many trials where the evidence used is the bodycam footage of the statement being given, or the 999 call with the complainant or just the statement being read with a hostile witness.
If not statement/ official complaint is made in the first place then its less likely that a charge will follow. Many a time I get to the police station and the copper will tell me theres no complaint, a no comment usually follows and no further action after that. However if its on cctv or theres an eye witness who gives a statement then they can charge based on that evidence
blueg33 said:
Many years ago I was the victim of an assault that caused some lasting damage.
The police absolutely asked me if I wanted to press charges.
Maybe it’s different now.
They did the same with me just over a year ago. Had the impression the question was only asked to give the scrote they were arresting something else to worry about.The police absolutely asked me if I wanted to press charges.
Maybe it’s different now.
The barrister is wrong. When I was in the police in Scotland I regularly asked victims if they wanted to press charges.
Random example - cyclist injured after being hit by car. Sufficient evidence to charge driver assuming cyclist gave statement. Cyclist asked if he wished to give a statement and was happy to go to court as a witness. He declined - no charges.
A prosecution, depending on the circumstances, is possible without victim cooperation but you are making life difficult for yourself. As court time is at a premium why waste it for a victim who won't cooperate?
Exceptions being things like domestic violence where a victim may be pressured into non cooperation. Usually a prosecution vwent ahead if at all possible.
Random example - cyclist injured after being hit by car. Sufficient evidence to charge driver assuming cyclist gave statement. Cyclist asked if he wished to give a statement and was happy to go to court as a witness. He declined - no charges.
A prosecution, depending on the circumstances, is possible without victim cooperation but you are making life difficult for yourself. As court time is at a premium why waste it for a victim who won't cooperate?
Exceptions being things like domestic violence where a victim may be pressured into non cooperation. Usually a prosecution vwent ahead if at all possible.
Edited by irc on Wednesday 30th August 17:27
ED209 said:
BlackWidow13 said:
AIUI the victim can’t force the police to bring a charge. That is the police’s call. But if the police decide to bring a charge they are usually reliant on the victim co-operating and giving evidence. So if the victim decides they want out, it’s game over.
It’s the call of the CPS not the police. irc said:
The barrister is wrong. When I was in the police in Scotland I regularly asked victims if they wanted to press charges.
Random example - cyclist injured after being hit by car. Sufficient evidence to charge driver assuming driver gave statement. Cyclist asked if he wished to give a statement and was happy to go to court as a witness. He declined - no charges.
A prosecution, depending on the circumstances, is possible without victim cooperation but you are making life difficult for yourself. As court time is at a premium why waste it for a victim who won't cooperate?
Exceptions being things like domestic violence where a victim may be pressured into non cooperation. Usually a prosecution vwent ahead if at all possible.
If it's the Barrister I'm thinking of he includes the caveat that he is, " A Barrister practicing law in England & Wales. "Random example - cyclist injured after being hit by car. Sufficient evidence to charge driver assuming driver gave statement. Cyclist asked if he wished to give a statement and was happy to go to court as a witness. He declined - no charges.
A prosecution, depending on the circumstances, is possible without victim cooperation but you are making life difficult for yourself. As court time is at a premium why waste it for a victim who won't cooperate?
Exceptions being things like domestic violence where a victim may be pressured into non cooperation. Usually a prosecution vwent ahead if at all possible.
He's mentioned on a number of occasions that Scotland has its own way of proceeding.
irc said:
The barrister is wrong. When I was in the police in Scotland I regularly asked victims if they wanted to press charges.
Random example - cyclist injured after being hit by car. Sufficient evidence to charge driver assuming cyclist gave statement. Cyclist asked if he wished to give a statement and was happy to go to court as a witness. He declined - no charges.
A prosecution, depending on the circumstances, is possible without victim cooperation but you are making life difficult for yourself. As court time is at a premium why waste it for a victim who won't cooperate?
Exceptions being things like domestic violence where a victim may be pressured into non cooperation. Usually a prosecution vwent ahead if at all possible.
Maybe I'm being pedantic, but in the example given aren't you really asking if the cyclist is willing to support a prosecution by giving a statement and attending court? It's not their decision whether or not to charge the car driver but, as you say, it's a waste of time for the police to charge without their co-operation.Random example - cyclist injured after being hit by car. Sufficient evidence to charge driver assuming cyclist gave statement. Cyclist asked if he wished to give a statement and was happy to go to court as a witness. He declined - no charges.
A prosecution, depending on the circumstances, is possible without victim cooperation but you are making life difficult for yourself. As court time is at a premium why waste it for a victim who won't cooperate?
Exceptions being things like domestic violence where a victim may be pressured into non cooperation. Usually a prosecution vwent ahead if at all possible.
What if the cyclist was knocked unconscious after the collision - surely the police would decide to charge regardless (if other evidence supported it) and prepare a case for the procurator fiscal to consider?
Our neighbour is constantly rowing with her boyfriend and always involves the Police. She makes up some story or other about him (threats of violence, w
king in the garden etc), they arrive within minutes as she is flagged as a "vulnerable female", and take him away unless he has already scarpered. He spend yesterday in custody and has spent a few nights locked up too, as well as a couple of restraining orders made against him. But as soon as he is out, he is back again and they are like a relatively normal couple until the next row. The Police tell us that she always refuses to press charges when she calms down, but still they come out every time she calls.
king in the garden etc), they arrive within minutes as she is flagged as a "vulnerable female", and take him away unless he has already scarpered. He spend yesterday in custody and has spent a few nights locked up too, as well as a couple of restraining orders made against him. But as soon as he is out, he is back again and they are like a relatively normal couple until the next row. The Police tell us that she always refuses to press charges when she calms down, but still they come out every time she calls. Our force is what they call "victim led" which means we ask the victim how they would like to proceed with their complaint, usually only in minor offences. So we could suggest community resolution, restorative justice etc as out of court disposal measures. But more serious offences wont have this option.
We also ask the victim if they would "support" a prosecution against the offender, which means they provide a statement, allow us to take photos, agree to appear at court etc....
We dont have a "you can press charges" as thats done by either custody (very minor stuff) or by the CPS who decide if they are going to proceed with a prosecution, having had sight of the circumstances and if the victim is supporting etc...
Seems to work well, have had a few cases (mainly domestic violence) where the AP has refused to support, but the nature of the circumstances mean that CPS will run with it anyway, which I totally agree with as things like victim intimidation etc are very real.
Hope that helps
We also ask the victim if they would "support" a prosecution against the offender, which means they provide a statement, allow us to take photos, agree to appear at court etc....
We dont have a "you can press charges" as thats done by either custody (very minor stuff) or by the CPS who decide if they are going to proceed with a prosecution, having had sight of the circumstances and if the victim is supporting etc...
Seems to work well, have had a few cases (mainly domestic violence) where the AP has refused to support, but the nature of the circumstances mean that CPS will run with it anyway, which I totally agree with as things like victim intimidation etc are very real.
Hope that helps
C69 said:
Maybe I'm being pedantic, but in the example given aren't you really asking if the cyclist is willing to support a prosecution by giving a statement and attending court? It's not their decision whether or not to charge the car driver but, as you say, it's a waste of time for the police to charge without their co-operation.
What if the cyclist was knocked unconscious after the collision - surely the police would decide to charge regardless (if other evidence supported it) and prepaase for the procurator fiscal to consider?
Like anything else it depends. An unconscious victim would be a prosecution if possible. What if the cyclist was knocked unconscious after the collision - surely the police would decide to charge regardless (if other evidence supported it) and prepaase for the procurator fiscal to consider?
The fact remains that for less serious cases, despite what the barrister says, victims were regularly given the choice of whether someone was charged.
Of course in the case I refer to my preferred outcome would have been the driver charged (I'm a cyclist) but there is no point pursuing many cases if the victim isn't cooperating.
Less serious cases they may not be given the choice. There was at the time, for example an unwritten rule by the local Procurator Fiscal in my area that proceedings would not be taken for careless driving in car v car crashes with no injuries. So in those cases both drivers would be told no charges. Why spend several hours getting witness statements and writing a report when you know it will be binned?
Another example being neighbour disputes. After finding out what happened I might say to one party your options are - neighbour warned on this occasion or neighbour charged with a minor breach of the peace. Bearing in mind they were still going to be neighbours whether I charged anyone or not some people preferred a warning rather than going to court as a witness. I was happy to give them that choice.
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