Help summons for 100-112mph, need a solicitor...........
Discussion
Friend of mine suggested you friendly guys at pistonheads might be able to help me :-)
I have just got a summons for speeding in excess of 70mph on the A22 Polegate bypass. I overtook an unmarked BMW 325i which followed me and stopped me. The problem I have is that according to my speedo I was only doing 95mph. The PC used PROVIDA and shows his speed at up to 112mph to catch up on the video. He said at the time he would average the speed out because there were points where I was doing less than 60mph and pulled to the left to let him through!! But the statement with the summons states "the speed was checked at between 100 and 112 mph". I did admit at the time to driving at 95 mph but totally disagree with the statement.
I have had various advice. A police inspector I know says to plead guilty, apologise and I should get points? Other advice is to plead not guilty and dispute the evidence? And another piece of advice was to get a solicitor.
I'm aware that my punishment will range form 6 points + small fine, to 6 months ban + big fine. I'll accept the former but really can't afford a ban......
So can anyone recommend a solicitor or service they have used that could point me in the right direction??
Cheers
>> Edited by bandit7 on Wednesday 7th September 08:21
I have just got a summons for speeding in excess of 70mph on the A22 Polegate bypass. I overtook an unmarked BMW 325i which followed me and stopped me. The problem I have is that according to my speedo I was only doing 95mph. The PC used PROVIDA and shows his speed at up to 112mph to catch up on the video. He said at the time he would average the speed out because there were points where I was doing less than 60mph and pulled to the left to let him through!! But the statement with the summons states "the speed was checked at between 100 and 112 mph". I did admit at the time to driving at 95 mph but totally disagree with the statement.
I have had various advice. A police inspector I know says to plead guilty, apologise and I should get points? Other advice is to plead not guilty and dispute the evidence? And another piece of advice was to get a solicitor.
I'm aware that my punishment will range form 6 points + small fine, to 6 months ban + big fine. I'll accept the former but really can't afford a ban......
So can anyone recommend a solicitor or service they have used that could point me in the right direction??
Cheers
>> Edited by bandit7 on Wednesday 7th September 08:21
100mph+ is ban country... I'd suggest you whip over to www.pepipoo.com
Make sure you read the Read Me First FAQ and post in the required format. It helps them help you.
SS2
Make sure you read the Read Me First FAQ and post in the required format. It helps them help you.
SS2
Bandit7 said:
It was a nice road! It was a black V reg with badly adjusted headlights!! They also have a light blue Scooby WRX I've seen chasing someone.
V reg?? Plod don't have cars that old do they??? I would've thought the lease would have run out by now surely? Sure you've got that right?
Can't figure out why vascar wasn't used. It would have given a much more accurate average speed reading which would have been hard to argue against especially with the video evidence.
But if you are sure your speed was 95 on your speedo, (probably around 90 in fact) you need to get a copy of the provida video for your defence. It may show that your speed was as per quoted on the summons. It may however show that when the BMW was travelling at 112mph it was catching up significantly. You may also be able to do a distance over time calculation of your car's speed using the video.
But if you are sure your speed was 95 on your speedo, (probably around 90 in fact) you need to get a copy of the provida video for your defence. It may show that your speed was as per quoted on the summons. It may however show that when the BMW was travelling at 112mph it was catching up significantly. You may also be able to do a distance over time calculation of your car's speed using the video.
"The PC used PROVIDA and shows his speed at up to 112mph to catch up on the video." - this is a key phrase. How many times has this sort of thing been believed by the courts to be the speed of the vehicle being chased, rather than the speed reached by the police car in closing the gap?
However, PROVIDA is a distance/time measurement device and the speed of the police car does not enter into it. The timer is started as the target vehicle passes an obvious 'marker' and the distance measurement is started as the police car passes the same point (some guesswork may be needed here, but any difference is likely to be slight). The timer and distance measurement are stopped as the target and police car pass another obvious 'marker'.
Of course, in any video it might not be possible to tell whether the start and stop points were synchronised. If it isn't obvious what the marker points were there might be grounds for "reasonable doubt" as to the actual speed.
Streaky
However, PROVIDA is a distance/time measurement device and the speed of the police car does not enter into it. The timer is started as the target vehicle passes an obvious 'marker' and the distance measurement is started as the police car passes the same point (some guesswork may be needed here, but any difference is likely to be slight). The timer and distance measurement are stopped as the target and police car pass another obvious 'marker'.
Of course, in any video it might not be possible to tell whether the start and stop points were synchronised. If it isn't obvious what the marker points were there might be grounds for "reasonable doubt" as to the actual speed.
Streaky
ProVida is a video recording facility with the ability to record speed using a time/distance (vascar type) method.
From Bandit's post it would strongly suggest that this recording method was not used, and the officer has relied on a following check using either the speedo or the provida speed reading to corroborate his opinion of speed over a period of time. The speedo reading, therefore the speed of the patrol car could be a very significant aspect of the officer's evidence.
From Bandit's post it would strongly suggest that this recording method was not used, and the officer has relied on a following check using either the speedo or the provida speed reading to corroborate his opinion of speed over a period of time. The speedo reading, therefore the speed of the patrol car could be a very significant aspect of the officer's evidence.
I've recently taken some good initial advice from www.motoringlawyers.com.
Seem to know their stuff.
Seem to know their stuff.
Thanks for all the replies guys.
Firstly the provida was not used to measure from point to point, time/distance and measure average speed. The PC said he wasn't trained in using that part of the system!! So what they have is a video of me and the speed on the video is his speedo reading only. This is why the summons says between 100mph and 112mph!! Secondly I want to get a copy of the video as I believe I'm entitled to it but do not know who/how to request it from? The paperwork with the summons is not from the CPS but from the magistrate’s court and Sussex police, so who do I ask for the video?
I also have a "Notice to defendant: proof by written statement" from Sussex Police in which it looks like I can get the PC to give oral evidence. Is this a good idea seeing as though I dispute the evidence? And can I plead guilty, as I am, and then dispute the evidence?
Cheers
>> Edited by bandit7 on Wednesday 7th September 08:22
Firstly the provida was not used to measure from point to point, time/distance and measure average speed. The PC said he wasn't trained in using that part of the system!! So what they have is a video of me and the speed on the video is his speedo reading only. This is why the summons says between 100mph and 112mph!! Secondly I want to get a copy of the video as I believe I'm entitled to it but do not know who/how to request it from? The paperwork with the summons is not from the CPS but from the magistrate’s court and Sussex police, so who do I ask for the video?
I also have a "Notice to defendant: proof by written statement" from Sussex Police in which it looks like I can get the PC to give oral evidence. Is this a good idea seeing as though I dispute the evidence? And can I plead guilty, as I am, and then dispute the evidence?
Cheers
>> Edited by bandit7 on Wednesday 7th September 08:22
You can request all the evidence without making a plea
however often they won't give it to you unless you plead not guilty
I think there is a court procedure you can use to get full disclosure of evidence has a funny name
but essentially its a discovery process
would allow you to see the tape.
I suspect if you press the police here they make drop it as the copper has admitted he wasn't trained and is essentially relying on an uncalibrated video
rgds
however often they won't give it to you unless you plead not guilty
I think there is a court procedure you can use to get full disclosure of evidence has a funny name
but essentially its a discovery process
would allow you to see the tape.
I suspect if you press the police here they make drop it as the copper has admitted he wasn't trained and is essentially relying on an uncalibrated video
rgds
Wheeey just a minute chaps.
Lets get this back into perspective.
Bandit 7 admits that he was speeding at 95 in an area that he knew as 70, i.e. 25 mph. He thinks this was on his speedo. Is he absolutely plum sure? On this site glancing down at the speedo is not exactly twee..... Without going into the rights and wrongs as etc he WAS breaking the law. Period.
So under the old addage - those that live by the sword die by the sword.
Now proving the offence. From what is said, forget Provida and the video. Bib has a speedometer in his car and no doubt he will have put a statement in to the effect (in the beloved words of Ahha " travelling at what appeared to be a fast speed and in consequence I carried out a check by following at a constant distance of X yards over Y tenths of mile during which time the speedometer of my patrol car registered between ZZZmph (min) and ZZZmph (max)."
Them That Be have decreed that over 96 mph a Conditional Offer will not be given but a summons instead so that the Mags can examine the case in more detail and if they accept the evidence of Bib then find for the Prosecution and in sentencing consider a ban.
At Court it will be up to Bandit to point out that according to his speedometer he was only doing 95 and that BiB's higher speeds must have been a result of the run in before a true speed was recorded. Very difficult to prove but the video may help. It may also act against Bandit 7. He can also put forward in mitigation the time of day, light traffic flows, fine weather - aspects that reduce the danger. Further if reliant on his Licence a ban would cause him great hardship (with evidence from employer etc) then they can use their discretion and not impose a ban.
Final point is that BiB, if relying on the follow
method should give evidence of testing the speedo as to its accuracy (stop watch and measured mile later). It has been accepted at High Court in the past that this is not necessary where a lower speed was involved.
Sorry bandit just observation from an old Smokie.
dvd
Lets get this back into perspective.
Bandit 7 admits that he was speeding at 95 in an area that he knew as 70, i.e. 25 mph. He thinks this was on his speedo. Is he absolutely plum sure? On this site glancing down at the speedo is not exactly twee..... Without going into the rights and wrongs as etc he WAS breaking the law. Period.
So under the old addage - those that live by the sword die by the sword.
Now proving the offence. From what is said, forget Provida and the video. Bib has a speedometer in his car and no doubt he will have put a statement in to the effect (in the beloved words of Ahha " travelling at what appeared to be a fast speed and in consequence I carried out a check by following at a constant distance of X yards over Y tenths of mile during which time the speedometer of my patrol car registered between ZZZmph (min) and ZZZmph (max)."
Them That Be have decreed that over 96 mph a Conditional Offer will not be given but a summons instead so that the Mags can examine the case in more detail and if they accept the evidence of Bib then find for the Prosecution and in sentencing consider a ban.
At Court it will be up to Bandit to point out that according to his speedometer he was only doing 95 and that BiB's higher speeds must have been a result of the run in before a true speed was recorded. Very difficult to prove but the video may help. It may also act against Bandit 7. He can also put forward in mitigation the time of day, light traffic flows, fine weather - aspects that reduce the danger. Further if reliant on his Licence a ban would cause him great hardship (with evidence from employer etc) then they can use their discretion and not impose a ban.
Final point is that BiB, if relying on the follow
method should give evidence of testing the speedo as to its accuracy (stop watch and measured mile later). It has been accepted at High Court in the past that this is not necessary where a lower speed was involved.
Sorry bandit just observation from an old Smokie.
dvd
"The PC said he wasn't trained....."
And in which other areas of his work was he not trained? Why was a police officer using such equipment without having been properly trained in its use?
Obtain video. Check that indicated speed of police vehicle corresponds to dist/time measured between 2 agreed points. This will confirm that the tape is running at the correct speed.
Now run the tape between the start and stop points of the section in which the PC claims you were exceeding the speed you admit to. Speed = distance/time. If this shows a result below the speed the PC claims, his evidence is unreliable and your solicitor should call for the case to be thrown out. If that doesn't work, stick to your whatever statement you made at the time.
And in which other areas of his work was he not trained? Why was a police officer using such equipment without having been properly trained in its use?
Obtain video. Check that indicated speed of police vehicle corresponds to dist/time measured between 2 agreed points. This will confirm that the tape is running at the correct speed.
Now run the tape between the start and stop points of the section in which the PC claims you were exceeding the speed you admit to. Speed = distance/time. If this shows a result below the speed the PC claims, his evidence is unreliable and your solicitor should call for the case to be thrown out. If that doesn't work, stick to your whatever statement you made at the time.
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