Working with a model (long dilemma post)
Discussion
I love photography. And really enjoy the depths of possibility that light and composition offer each subject. Im inexperienced, have a lowly Canon G5, but enjoy building rewarding scenes (by hand, at my own pace). I'm the type who prefers to spend hours pouring over and composing a few good shots rather than shooting live scenes of change and movement (my shutter and autofocus is lightyears behing my thought process anyway :)) Praps I was destined to be just a studio snapper - There isnt anything too terribly wrong in that, is there?
re: me being "inexperienced" I really dont know as much as I 'should' and dare I say it - I wouldnt be able to properly explain F-stops to a beginner either :o (which really does make me an amateur)
A few of the photos Ive taken can be found [url]here|http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=185215&f=109&h=0&hw=ukbob[/url]
My quandry is this: I want a 20d but dont have one, yet. And whilst shooting flowers and insects is cool (I planned on sticking with them for a while) I met a lady who is a make up artist last week, who is now a client of mine, knows I like photography and wants to put me in touch with some models. "Testing" its called - The model and photographer work for each other for free (its just a hobby for me, I have a day job and business) but I feel totally unqualified to work with them. Although she assures me her girlfriends would love to work with me, I feel as if Id be wasting their time :o
Surely models, even 'new' ones trying to build their portfolio, would be in search of people with expensive softboxes, decent bodies (quiet at the back please!) fast lenses and loads of equipment? stuff I dont have :confused:
The other side of that coin: If the model is free and inexperienced, she wont be able to teach me anything about lighting, how to work with her, it'll be a total disaster!
Id like to say yeah, I'll give it a go! But I dont want to feel as if im wasting anyones time and fail miserably because I dont have the right equipment or the necessary experience.
What to do :scratchchin: And no, I cant get a canon 20d till next year. I want to get stuck in, but should I give it a shot, or say no?
re: me being "inexperienced" I really dont know as much as I 'should' and dare I say it - I wouldnt be able to properly explain F-stops to a beginner either :o (which really does make me an amateur)
A few of the photos Ive taken can be found [url]here|http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=185215&f=109&h=0&hw=ukbob[/url]
My quandry is this: I want a 20d but dont have one, yet. And whilst shooting flowers and insects is cool (I planned on sticking with them for a while) I met a lady who is a make up artist last week, who is now a client of mine, knows I like photography and wants to put me in touch with some models. "Testing" its called - The model and photographer work for each other for free (its just a hobby for me, I have a day job and business) but I feel totally unqualified to work with them. Although she assures me her girlfriends would love to work with me, I feel as if Id be wasting their time :o
Surely models, even 'new' ones trying to build their portfolio, would be in search of people with expensive softboxes, decent bodies (quiet at the back please!) fast lenses and loads of equipment? stuff I dont have :confused:
The other side of that coin: If the model is free and inexperienced, she wont be able to teach me anything about lighting, how to work with her, it'll be a total disaster!
Id like to say yeah, I'll give it a go! But I dont want to feel as if im wasting anyones time and fail miserably because I dont have the right equipment or the necessary experience.
What to do :scratchchin: And no, I cant get a canon 20d till next year. I want to get stuck in, but should I give it a shot, or say no?
Surely in those circumstances, if you're clear and realistic about what you can offer, then you should leave the other party (as an adult) to make their own decisions.
If they like your work and still want to go ahead, then that's their choice. You have two options then - treat them as a child or respect their decision. Difficult call because you have to judge how vulnerable they are, but if you're asking the question in the first place, it's unlikely you'll make the wrong call. IMO.
If they like your work and still want to go ahead, then that's their choice. You have two options then - treat them as a child or respect their decision. Difficult call because you have to judge how vulnerable they are, but if you're asking the question in the first place, it's unlikely you'll make the wrong call. IMO.
Hi Rob
Testing is good way for models to get pics in the folios. It's also a great way for young photographers or assistants to build their folios. It's mutually beneficial as no money changes hands, the photographer gets the use of a model, albeit an inexperienced one, and the model gets some, hopefully, half decent pics in their folios. Half decent is the point here. If they look like Aunty Mabel took them in the back garden it doesn't come across as professional.
Usually a model will try to build a varied portfolio with 'lit' studio shots. There would also be outside location pics which is where you might come in. Having all the kit doesn't mean good pics will be taken and there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to take some nice head shots with nothing more than a piece of white card as a reflector. The more varied her (or his) folio is the better. I used to shoot a Z card every year for a model and she always had specific styles of shot aimed at various markets, i.e. a 'secretary' shot. just to broaden her appeal. The glamourous notion of modelling is one of Vogue covers or strutting up and down a Paris catwalk, but the reality is for all, but a very, very few, is jobbing modelling and promo work, anything to get some money in... assuming they want to try and do it for a living.
If she was expensive & experienced it's unlikely she would be able to teach you anything about lighting......... that's the photographers job.
That does take experience, like all things in life. I always found it hard working with inexperienced models. They don't know what to do (and nor will you) and it's hard trying to pose them without making it look stiff and awkward (posed!). The best way for them to learn is to watch other, more experienced, models working.
You know you want too
so give it a go. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. For a little inspiration look at other model shots and meet up and discuss what the model has in mind, talk about locations, clothes, accessories, make up, props (with inexperienced models it can be a good idea to give them something to do with there hands).
Here's a couple of provincial agencies to look at for ideas:
www.sandrareynolds.co.uk
www.motmodel.com
And if you feel more ambitious:
www.stormmodels.com/index.html
The worst you could do is to end up looking and feeling like a right plonker, in which case you can make amends by taking them for a spin in the Cerb
HTH
Cheers
Paul
UKbob said:
I"Testing" its called - The model and photographer work for each other for free (its just a hobby for me, I have a day job and business) but I feel totally unqualified to work with them. Although she assures me her girlfriends would love to work with me, I feel as if Id be wasting their time 
Surely models, even 'new' ones trying to build their portfolio, would be in search of people with expensive softboxes, decent bodies (quiet at the back please!) fast lenses and loads of equipment? stuff I dont have
Testing is good way for models to get pics in the folios. It's also a great way for young photographers or assistants to build their folios. It's mutually beneficial as no money changes hands, the photographer gets the use of a model, albeit an inexperienced one, and the model gets some, hopefully, half decent pics in their folios. Half decent is the point here. If they look like Aunty Mabel took them in the back garden it doesn't come across as professional.
Usually a model will try to build a varied portfolio with 'lit' studio shots. There would also be outside location pics which is where you might come in. Having all the kit doesn't mean good pics will be taken and there's no reason why you wouldn't be able to take some nice head shots with nothing more than a piece of white card as a reflector. The more varied her (or his) folio is the better. I used to shoot a Z card every year for a model and she always had specific styles of shot aimed at various markets, i.e. a 'secretary' shot. just to broaden her appeal. The glamourous notion of modelling is one of Vogue covers or strutting up and down a Paris catwalk, but the reality is for all, but a very, very few, is jobbing modelling and promo work, anything to get some money in... assuming they want to try and do it for a living.
UKbob said:
The other side of that coin: If the model is free and inexperienced, she wont be able to teach me anything about lighting,
If she was expensive & experienced it's unlikely she would be able to teach you anything about lighting......... that's the photographers job.
UKbob said:
how to work with her,
That does take experience, like all things in life. I always found it hard working with inexperienced models. They don't know what to do (and nor will you) and it's hard trying to pose them without making it look stiff and awkward (posed!). The best way for them to learn is to watch other, more experienced, models working.
UKbob said:
I want to get stuck in, but should I give it a shot, or say no?
You know you want too
so give it a go. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. For a little inspiration look at other model shots and meet up and discuss what the model has in mind, talk about locations, clothes, accessories, make up, props (with inexperienced models it can be a good idea to give them something to do with there hands). Here's a couple of provincial agencies to look at for ideas:
www.sandrareynolds.co.uk
www.motmodel.com
And if you feel more ambitious:
www.stormmodels.com/index.html
The worst you could do is to end up looking and feeling like a right plonker, in which case you can make amends by taking them for a spin in the Cerb
HTH
Cheers
Paul
It sounds from the way you are writing that you want to get stuck into something like this. I think you should do it, if it all goes horribly wrong then so be it. From the perspective of an inexperienced model, I can only guess that if they get one or two decent shots for the portfolio they will be pleased with the arrangement.
As for this:
Not sure an inexperienced or experienced model would know a softbox from a shitbox but I may be wrong. If they are inexperienced and know you are also inexperienced, and they agree to do it, then you have nothing to worry about!
As for this:
UKbob said:
Surely models, even 'new' ones trying to build their portfolio, would be in search of people with expensive softboxes, decent bodies (quiet at the back please!) fast lenses and loads of equipment? stuff I dont have
Not sure an inexperienced or experienced model would know a softbox from a shitbox but I may be wrong. If they are inexperienced and know you are also inexperienced, and they agree to do it, then you have nothing to worry about!
I worked with a "model" for the first time on Monday. It was for a charity calander and the theme was girls from another forum I post on with thier cars.
I had a good idea for the shot before I went which made things easier but I don't think either of us really knew how to get the poses right when we got there. We simply tried a few different things and once I saw what worked best I shot about 50 shots from the same spot, getting her to change postition slighly each time. The slighest move can make all the difference as I saw in the results. I let her do her own thing and only offered a few tips about how to pose when I saw something was "nearly" right to get it "really" right. Already I feel more confident to do another shoot.
Best thing is she is really over the moon with the shots and I quite happy too It's made me want to do more model shots 
I had a good idea for the shot before I went which made things easier but I don't think either of us really knew how to get the poses right when we got there. We simply tried a few different things and once I saw what worked best I shot about 50 shots from the same spot, getting her to change postition slighly each time. The slighest move can make all the difference as I saw in the results. I let her do her own thing and only offered a few tips about how to pose when I saw something was "nearly" right to get it "really" right. Already I feel more confident to do another shoot.
Best thing is she is really over the moon with the shots and I quite happy too
It's made me want to do more model shots Time to share a bit of my history. 
I did some studio work when I was younger, exactly on the terms you described. No money changed hands and I was allowed to choose a number of pictures which the photographer had printed at his expense. I wasn't looking for a modelling career btw, I got into it when I needed a full length photo doing for a job application. However, I got on well with the photographer and understood that he was trying to build his skills, I got a bit of promo work from it and after a while he used to pay me a set hourly rate just so he could practice different sets/locations before he did a 'real' shoot.
I have only two bits of advice - do some reading/watch dvd's that show you how to pose a model. The photographer I worked with gave me a couple to watch so I had an idea of the look he was after. As you'll probably know, in order to get a pose to look natural on camera the model really has to exaggerate certain angles, even simple things like where hands are placed (easy boys!!) can make a huge difference. If the photographer can give direction about the poses with 'conviction', it makes the whole thing less embarrassing for both parties.
Secondly, and most importantly, be very very careful where and how you do this type of work. Young inexperienced models can get the wrong idea, if you know what I mean. The photographer I worked with had his wife on hand to supposedly help with costume changes. In reality, she was there to a) check he wasn't being over familiar
and b) that the model couldn't say there had been any foul play.
I did some studio work when I was younger, exactly on the terms you described. No money changed hands and I was allowed to choose a number of pictures which the photographer had printed at his expense. I wasn't looking for a modelling career btw, I got into it when I needed a full length photo doing for a job application. However, I got on well with the photographer and understood that he was trying to build his skills, I got a bit of promo work from it and after a while he used to pay me a set hourly rate just so he could practice different sets/locations before he did a 'real' shoot.
I have only two bits of advice - do some reading/watch dvd's that show you how to pose a model. The photographer I worked with gave me a couple to watch so I had an idea of the look he was after. As you'll probably know, in order to get a pose to look natural on camera the model really has to exaggerate certain angles, even simple things like where hands are placed (easy boys!!) can make a huge difference. If the photographer can give direction about the poses with 'conviction', it makes the whole thing less embarrassing for both parties.
Secondly, and most importantly, be very very careful where and how you do this type of work. Young inexperienced models can get the wrong idea, if you know what I mean. The photographer I worked with had his wife on hand to supposedly help with costume changes. In reality, she was there to a) check he wasn't being over familiar
and b) that the model couldn't say there had been any foul play. If you're serious about doing this, I'd go for it - reading one of the latest photo magazines, they comment that the majority of photos they recieve are 'things wot I found in my garden', and they are always desperately short of fresh, interesting portraits. Looking at PBase and the other sites, you'll see the same - millions of macro shots of bees on flowers, and architectural shots of 'where I went on holiday'.
You can get excellent portraits and model shots just with natural light, but you have to think about how to achieve it, and make sure your location provides the required setting to make use of natural light. Lots of info on the net, and some excellent books. As for equipment, start with ensuring you have roughly the right focal length for the job and the space to use it, and you're a long way to getting something interesting.
The thing that will make the difference is not the equipment you use, but how you see form and shape, and your attention to little details. Firstly, you'll need to be able to distance yourself from the concept, and see the shapes, contours and textures that your model and her pose creates. Secondly, in portraiture, fashion and similar shoots, the tiny little details are what make or break a shot - a bit of flyaway hair, fingers in the wrong position, a watery eye, bra straps showing - there are hundreds of ways of distracting people when they're looking at the image you were trying to produce. The human eye is trained to recognise other humans, so they're the hardest thing to get right in photographs - we spot imperfections very quickly.
Finally, you'll need to build rapport with your model (meet with them before hand and find out what they expect, what they want to do etc.). Set up an environment that they find relaxing and if they're not so experienced, read up on posing so you can guide them.
It's a hell of a steep learning curve, but if you've got the opportunity, I'd go for it.
You can get excellent portraits and model shots just with natural light, but you have to think about how to achieve it, and make sure your location provides the required setting to make use of natural light. Lots of info on the net, and some excellent books. As for equipment, start with ensuring you have roughly the right focal length for the job and the space to use it, and you're a long way to getting something interesting.
The thing that will make the difference is not the equipment you use, but how you see form and shape, and your attention to little details. Firstly, you'll need to be able to distance yourself from the concept, and see the shapes, contours and textures that your model and her pose creates. Secondly, in portraiture, fashion and similar shoots, the tiny little details are what make or break a shot - a bit of flyaway hair, fingers in the wrong position, a watery eye, bra straps showing - there are hundreds of ways of distracting people when they're looking at the image you were trying to produce. The human eye is trained to recognise other humans, so they're the hardest thing to get right in photographs - we spot imperfections very quickly.
Finally, you'll need to build rapport with your model (meet with them before hand and find out what they expect, what they want to do etc.). Set up an environment that they find relaxing and if they're not so experienced, read up on posing so you can guide them.
It's a hell of a steep learning curve, but if you've got the opportunity, I'd go for it.
The "People Photography" forum on www.fredmiranda.com is a good place to go for examples and tips.
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