Removing a garden wall that is an ad hoc retaining wall
Discussion
TLDR: My neighbour's landscapers used my garden wall (non-retaining) as a retaining wall for my neighbour's path. If he doesn't want to build a retaining wall on his side, but I need to remove the wall (because it was already in disrepair when they started and is now worse), and his path ends up wonky or sliding into my garden, am I on the hook to fix his path?
The long version:
I have a garden wall that sits along my boundary with a neighbour. It's less than 1m high, cheap single-skin (with supporting piers at regular intervals) wall of dubious quality. I inherited it from the previous owners and due to spalling it's a bit of an eyesore; has been since I owned the property. I've discussed removing it with my neighbour ever since I lived here and he was quite keen on the idea of getting rid of it as his side is just as bad.
However... a couple of years ago I returned home to find that he had employed some "landscapers" to build a path on his side of my wall. As he was connecting two areas of differing elevation, they had built up the ground on his side... using my cheapo wall as a retaining wall. At the deepest point it's holding back about a foot depth, tapering off to nothing at the end of the wall. Presumably compacted hardcore and sand, with flags on top. So not a massive load.
As soon as I realised what they had done, I raised it with my neighbour in conversation, but nothing in writing. He obtained a quote from the same landscapers to rebuild my wall (in his choice of materials, matching the rest of his new landscaping
) , and passed it on to me expecting I would take it up. I declined, but reminded him that I had always planned to take the wall down and replace it with something else, as we both agreed it looked a bit crap.
I'm now at the point where I'm planning what to do. I don't want a wall there but need to have something to mark the boundary. I'm tending towards planting a hedge to extend the existing one before the wall. Where the wall has 6"-12" of earth against it I think I'll leave it in place as I am concerned removing this part will result in his path ending up in my garden after heavy rain. But, the half that is only holding between 0 and 6" of material back, I think I can remove safely. I'll give him a few months heads-up in case he wants to add something on his side first, but assuming he doesn't what are the implications if his nice flat path ends up in my garden or (more likely) ends up very much not flat after the material underneath gets washed out over time?
We get on well, and he's the sort of chap who, if it does go wrong, will usually just shrug and fix it himself, but he does have moments of being a bit of an obsessive middle-aged git. Hence I want to ensure I'm not opening myself up to paying a bill for him to have remedial works carried out due to his path not being built correctly in the first place.
What do you think? Would I be liable to repair his incorrectly-built path if I remove my wall that is holding back up to a foot of earth?
The long version:
I have a garden wall that sits along my boundary with a neighbour. It's less than 1m high, cheap single-skin (with supporting piers at regular intervals) wall of dubious quality. I inherited it from the previous owners and due to spalling it's a bit of an eyesore; has been since I owned the property. I've discussed removing it with my neighbour ever since I lived here and he was quite keen on the idea of getting rid of it as his side is just as bad.
However... a couple of years ago I returned home to find that he had employed some "landscapers" to build a path on his side of my wall. As he was connecting two areas of differing elevation, they had built up the ground on his side... using my cheapo wall as a retaining wall. At the deepest point it's holding back about a foot depth, tapering off to nothing at the end of the wall. Presumably compacted hardcore and sand, with flags on top. So not a massive load.
As soon as I realised what they had done, I raised it with my neighbour in conversation, but nothing in writing. He obtained a quote from the same landscapers to rebuild my wall (in his choice of materials, matching the rest of his new landscaping
) , and passed it on to me expecting I would take it up. I declined, but reminded him that I had always planned to take the wall down and replace it with something else, as we both agreed it looked a bit crap. I'm now at the point where I'm planning what to do. I don't want a wall there but need to have something to mark the boundary. I'm tending towards planting a hedge to extend the existing one before the wall. Where the wall has 6"-12" of earth against it I think I'll leave it in place as I am concerned removing this part will result in his path ending up in my garden after heavy rain. But, the half that is only holding between 0 and 6" of material back, I think I can remove safely. I'll give him a few months heads-up in case he wants to add something on his side first, but assuming he doesn't what are the implications if his nice flat path ends up in my garden or (more likely) ends up very much not flat after the material underneath gets washed out over time?
We get on well, and he's the sort of chap who, if it does go wrong, will usually just shrug and fix it himself, but he does have moments of being a bit of an obsessive middle-aged git. Hence I want to ensure I'm not opening myself up to paying a bill for him to have remedial works carried out due to his path not being built correctly in the first place.
What do you think? Would I be liable to repair his incorrectly-built path if I remove my wall that is holding back up to a foot of earth?
Edited by donkmeister on Saturday 9th September 22:19
Your prime consideration is, who is responsible for the wall?, how is it designated on your deeds? your responsibility or his?? the best remedy would be an agreement between the two of you as to how to proceed, but that is always problematic with choices and opinions and monetary considerations.
donkmeister said:
... I declined, but reminded him that I had always planned to take the wall down and replace it with something else, as we both agreed it looked a bit crap.
It doesn't appear that you have granted your neighbour a right to use your property to support the path. If you have then you would be liable. Absent a grant, if it had been there for 20 years then there may be a right to support, by prescription. (Bear that in mind if you keep the wall there to support path of the path).Racing Newt said:
Your prime consideration is, who is responsible for the wall?, how is it designated on your deeds? your responsibility or his?? the best remedy would be an agreement between the two of you as to how to proceed, but that is always problematic with choices and opinions and monetary considerations.
It's my wall, we're certain of that. It's just on my side of the boundary (so far as can be ascertained from 100+ year old deeds!) and I'm responsible for the boundary (but nothing prescribes precisely what I need to use for the boundary). The issue is that what was once a boundary along some flat land is now a boundary that has a foot of earth on his side (i.e. if the wall wasn't there he'd have had to get a retaining structure in place to put his path there).Zeeky said:
donkmeister said:
... I declined, but reminded him that I had always planned to take the wall down and replace it with something else, as we both agreed it looked a bit crap.
It doesn't appear that you have granted your neighbour a right to use your property to support the path. If you have then you would be liable. Absent a grant, if it had been there for 20 years then there may be a right to support, by prescription. (Bear that in mind if you keep the wall there to support path of the path).I'm starting to lean towards "just proceed and remind him of the issue in passing when we are assessing my handywork, and cross the retaining wall bridge if his path starts to subside later"... Apart from occasional boundary cheekiness he's a really good neighbour and that's worth a lot! There could also be unintended consequences if I push for a retaining structure as he may just excavate a little and throw rough concrete into the hole - which would look gash once I knock my wall down.
I fear you’ve complicated things by being a decent neighbour, the right thing was to ask them to remove the landscaping but moving forward I think you’ll need to be more assertive. If it was me, I’d write and outline the history. I would then explain the situation and say, it is your intention to take the wall down and give them a reasonable time to make arrangements to prop their landscaping but regardless the wall is coming down as you consider it unstable and unsafe.
I’d point out that your wall is not there to prop his landscaping
Unfortunately this could become problematic as it seems as if he’s a entitled
I’d point out that your wall is not there to prop his landscaping
Unfortunately this could become problematic as it seems as if he’s a entitled
donkmeister said:
Zeeky said:
donkmeister said:
... I declined, but reminded him that I had always planned to take the wall down and replace it with something else, as we both agreed it looked a bit crap.
It doesn't appear that you have granted your neighbour a right to use your property to support the path. If you have then you would be liable. Absent a grant, if it had been there for 20 years then there may be a right to support, by prescription. (Bear that in mind if you keep the wall there to support path of the path).I'm starting to lean towards "just proceed and remind him of the issue in passing when we are assessing my handywork, and cross the retaining wall bridge if his path starts to subside later"... Apart from occasional boundary cheekiness he's a really good neighbour and that's worth a lot! There could also be unintended consequences if I push for a retaining structure as he may just excavate a little and throw rough concrete into the hole - which would look gash once I knock my wall down.
You're obviously best placed to decide how to deal with your neighbour but I wouldn't worry about acquired rights for another 17 years.
Depending on the size of your front garden, and especially if you don't need the space for parking, the pragmatic option here may be to remind your neighbour it's not the best quality wall in the world so his problem if his path escapes in time, then plant your hedge in front of it.
I'm not really sure I could be bothered with a neighbour row on this one...
I'm not really sure I could be bothered with a neighbour row on this one...
Edited by surveyor on Monday 11th September 13:58
Agree with the poster above.
It’s not worth causing agro with an otherwise nice neighbour. If it were me I’d tell him I’m planting a hedge in front of it, offer him the chance to put a stronger wall up if he wishes prior to the hedge going up and then crack on.
No point removing a wall you’re not going to see, you’ll only gain what - 100mm of space?
It’s not worth causing agro with an otherwise nice neighbour. If it were me I’d tell him I’m planting a hedge in front of it, offer him the chance to put a stronger wall up if he wishes prior to the hedge going up and then crack on.
No point removing a wall you’re not going to see, you’ll only gain what - 100mm of space?
DaveA8 said:
I fear you’ve complicated things by being a decent neighbour, the right thing was to ask them to remove the landscaping but moving forward I think you’ll need to be more assertive. If it was me, I’d write and outline the history. I would then explain the situation and say, it is your intention to take the wall down and give them a reasonable time to make arrangements to prop their landscaping but regardless the wall is coming down as you consider it unstable and unsafe.
I’d point out that your wall is not there to prop his landscaping
Unfortunately this could become problematic as it seems as if he’s a entitled
Yep, the easiest solution would have been to put your good relations with your neighbour at risk by getting all antagonistic and legalistic from the outset, and talking cobblers about a 1ft high (tops) wall being 'unsafe'. Getting on with your neighbours is overrated anyway, and just planting a hedge in front of it and letting it lie is the weakling's way out, so don't give the bI’d point out that your wall is not there to prop his landscaping
Unfortunately this could become problematic as it seems as if he’s a entitled
ds an inch. That's the simple and unproblematic way.Roger Irrelevant said:
DaveA8 said:
I fear you’ve complicated things by being a decent neighbour, the right thing was to ask them to remove the landscaping but moving forward I think you’ll need to be more assertive. If it was me, I’d write and outline the history. I would then explain the situation and say, it is your intention to take the wall down and give them a reasonable time to make arrangements to prop their landscaping but regardless the wall is coming down as you consider it unstable and unsafe.
I’d point out that your wall is not there to prop his landscaping
Unfortunately this could become problematic as it seems as if he’s a entitled
Yep, the easiest solution would have been to put your good relations with your neighbour at risk by getting all antagonistic and legalistic from the outset, and talking cobblers about a 1ft high (tops) wall being 'unsafe'. Getting on with your neighbours is overrated anyway, and just planting a hedge in front of it and letting it lie is the weakling's way out, so don't give the bI’d point out that your wall is not there to prop his landscaping
Unfortunately this could become problematic as it seems as if he’s a entitled
ds an inch. That's the simple and unproblematic way.I never mentioned aggression or weakling, I pointed out the correct protocol in ensuring that a very possible claim for damage to landscaping be avoided. Really with passive aggressive a
holes like you on here I see why people don't bother. I'll readily admit your post annoyed me, not because it disagrees with my position but it's just bhy, unnecessary and frankly doesn't address the matter. I actually think you come across as a no mark
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff