Discussion
I've been watching Fox News for a few days now and am
shocked at the devastation caused by Katrina in the USA. I assumed that as our greatest ally we would be offering help (from government) and aid organisations would be making appeals as they did very quickly for the Tsunami, how wrong I was! The BBC advise me that the USA have neither asked for nor want any international help, Fox have broadcast that Germany, Israel and Venezuela have all offered, and Oxfam say that OXfam America is dealing with donations out there and seem to be doing ok. I know not everyone would want to help the USA, but they are humans and they are suffering, I just can't believe the lack of support. Rant over!
shocked at the devastation caused by Katrina in the USA. I assumed that as our greatest ally we would be offering help (from government) and aid organisations would be making appeals as they did very quickly for the Tsunami, how wrong I was! The BBC advise me that the USA have neither asked for nor want any international help, Fox have broadcast that Germany, Israel and Venezuela have all offered, and Oxfam say that OXfam America is dealing with donations out there and seem to be doing ok. I know not everyone would want to help the USA, but they are humans and they are suffering, I just can't believe the lack of support. Rant over!
Camaro SS said:
I've been watching Fox News for a few days now and am
shocked at the devastation caused by Katrina in the USA. I assumed that as our greatest ally we would be offering help (from government) and aid organisations would be making appeals as they did very quickly for the Tsunami, how wrong I was! The BBC advise me that the USA have neither asked for nor want any international help, Fox have broadcast that Germany, Israel and Venezuela have all offered, and Oxfam say that OXfam America is dealing with donations out there and seem to be doing ok. I know not everyone would want to help the USA, but they are humans and they are suffering, I just can't believe the lack of support. Rant over!
Tony Blair has gone on record as saying 'we will assist in anyway we can'?,whatever that means,surely he would of been better offering trained disaster and recovery units,what i would be very angry about if i was stuck in that area is the way the American govt is dragging its feet,.i mean its been 4 days since WTF is going on
I would think that any help we give would be a drop in the ocean given the size of the disaster and the US resouces.
We need our funds for asylum seekers including income support, benefit payments, free housing, free schooling, free health service and supply of free cars etc for anyone who cares to drop by.
I feel for the affected areas and agree that there doesn't appear to be a lot of help going on.
We need our funds for asylum seekers including income support, benefit payments, free housing, free schooling, free health service and supply of free cars etc for anyone who cares to drop by.
I feel for the affected areas and agree that there doesn't appear to be a lot of help going on.
While I understand the rant I (extremely respectfully) have to disagree. There's been a lot of non-US interest, most of which is only just hitting the news. You have to dig deep in the news to find it, but it's there. The shock-horror of it all is selling newspapers right now, so that's what you hear about.
One big difference between the US and Asian disasters is that the US already has charities set up for helping in this kind of situation. You can donate directly to them (eg the American Red Cross). You don't need to give to a charity here.
The issues in New Orleans right now have nothing to do with a lack of food or water. It's the supply of it that's an issue. Likewise, transportation is in no short supply. It's there in the US. We don't need to ship buses across from the UK.
After the hurricane passed there was a lot of flooding but it took a couple of days for the levees to breach and the damage kept increasing. The US federal response was insufficient. There were (and are) many things that could be done, but they're not. The political egos are also out in full force and it's not pretty. Too many people stayed behind because they had no way (transportation of their own) to leave. The poor people in New Orleans are really, really POOR. They couldn't have walked out of the city in the 24 hours notice that they were given.
New Orleans itself is a logistical nightmare, especially as two of the main routes in are smashed and the I10-W is partly underwater. Mobilising resorces to the area isn't easy as it's in the middle of a swamp.
We have many ties with New Orleans. We've spent a lot of time there and even had our wedding there in February after Mardi Gras. Seeing the devastation in the streets you've walked along and driven along is horrible. We've shopped at 'that Walmart' on many occasions.
The failure here isn't of foreign aid, which is there in ways that are useful, such as Australia offering 500 university places to students etc. Money's on its way, too. My company is matching any contributions we make. The failure is in the US government funding which was cut back to fund the Iraq war and in the inadequate emergency preparations and response. Engineers ran a simulation of what would happen in a cat 5 hurricane and predicted this. The government nevertheless cut back funding for levee repairs and maintenance.
Aaaanyway... I'm off on one about Bush. Too easy a target.
The best thing to do is not to watch Fox News, which any American will tell you is horribly right wing and has no problem changing 'the news' to suit their own purpose. Stick with 'independent' sources!!!
Seeing the Old Girl and her locals like this is just heartbreaking, but the blame for the aftermath of Katrina lies completely upon US shoulders.
One big difference between the US and Asian disasters is that the US already has charities set up for helping in this kind of situation. You can donate directly to them (eg the American Red Cross). You don't need to give to a charity here.
The issues in New Orleans right now have nothing to do with a lack of food or water. It's the supply of it that's an issue. Likewise, transportation is in no short supply. It's there in the US. We don't need to ship buses across from the UK.
After the hurricane passed there was a lot of flooding but it took a couple of days for the levees to breach and the damage kept increasing. The US federal response was insufficient. There were (and are) many things that could be done, but they're not. The political egos are also out in full force and it's not pretty. Too many people stayed behind because they had no way (transportation of their own) to leave. The poor people in New Orleans are really, really POOR. They couldn't have walked out of the city in the 24 hours notice that they were given.
New Orleans itself is a logistical nightmare, especially as two of the main routes in are smashed and the I10-W is partly underwater. Mobilising resorces to the area isn't easy as it's in the middle of a swamp.
We have many ties with New Orleans. We've spent a lot of time there and even had our wedding there in February after Mardi Gras. Seeing the devastation in the streets you've walked along and driven along is horrible. We've shopped at 'that Walmart' on many occasions.
The failure here isn't of foreign aid, which is there in ways that are useful, such as Australia offering 500 university places to students etc. Money's on its way, too. My company is matching any contributions we make. The failure is in the US government funding which was cut back to fund the Iraq war and in the inadequate emergency preparations and response. Engineers ran a simulation of what would happen in a cat 5 hurricane and predicted this. The government nevertheless cut back funding for levee repairs and maintenance.
Aaaanyway... I'm off on one about Bush. Too easy a target.
The best thing to do is not to watch Fox News, which any American will tell you is horribly right wing and has no problem changing 'the news' to suit their own purpose. Stick with 'independent' sources!!!
Seeing the Old Girl and her locals like this is just heartbreaking, but the blame for the aftermath of Katrina lies completely upon US shoulders.
Maybe the difference between this disaster and the Asian tsunami is that the US is the richest country in the world and (one would hope) has the most advanced disaster recovery plans and resources for just this sort of situation.
They don't need our money: They need better-organised distribution of their existing domestic resources.
That, and some heavy-handed law and order...
They don't need our money: They need better-organised distribution of their existing domestic resources.
That, and some heavy-handed law and order...
Living in Vegas and seeing a spectrum of the news here I can say that the Americans are seriously shaken bt these events. The scenes are just unimaginable for the worlds only superpower.
I can say without doubt that even the US needs help on this one. The advice here is send cash to one of the major charities. In this situation politics shouldn't even be a consideration IMHO.
I can say without doubt that even the US needs help on this one. The advice here is send cash to one of the major charities. In this situation politics shouldn't even be a consideration IMHO.
Dee Gee said:
In this situation politics shouldn't even be a consideration IMHO.
Sad thing is Bush thinks its a great time for a media promo frenzy, couldnt have been any emergency plans in place for this kind of event, if there was they were crap. Really odd, after 911 you would think they would have had plans for all kinds of recovery.
Gixer said:
In this situation politics shouldn't even be a consideration IMHO.
Sad thing is Bush thinks its a great time for a media promo frenzy, couldnt have been any emergency plans in place for this kind of event, if there was they were crap. Really odd, after 911 you would think they would have had plans for all kinds of recovery.
I was shocked at what little time it took for a corner of the western "civilised" world to descend into anarchy,a bad move for Bush with the worlds terrorist network watching.
kenski said:
While I understand the rant I (extremely respectfully) have to disagree. ...snip...
Thanks for that, very articulately put. Sitting here on this side of the pond it is difficult to understand why relief is taking so long, and questions will be rightly asked, but the affected area is huge, the logistics must be a nightmare, in short almost beyond our comprehension, larger than Gt Britain, Jesus. On a global scale it is not the same as the Tsunami, " the USA economy will be slowed for 3-4 months" but at a personal level it is no different. As we sit here wondering whether to polish the vette after breakfast, those poor poor people have lost everthing; their past, for many no doubt their future, and
God forbid, their family. In reality there is little we can do except say a prayer
yellowshark454 said:
Sitting here on this side of the pond it is difficult to understand why relief is taking so long, and questions will be rightly asked, but the affected area is huge, the logistics must be a nightmare, in short almost beyond our comprehension, larger than Gt Britain, Jesus.
Agreed. The logistics are huge, but the real problem initially wasn't the lack of food & water, it was the total breakdown of law & order & complete inactivity. The US is well used to hurricanes & should be prepared for them. The National Guard should have been mobilised, the military have flat bottomed boats that are ideal for flooded streets, etc, etc, etc. I have some friends in the US & am hearing a lot of what's going on. The latest (& I hope he doesn't mind me quoting) is:
-----
.....The FEMA people have seriously reduced the amount of personnel,
material, and budget available for natural disaster management,
re-allocating those resources into planning and preparing for the next 9/11
attack. I'm all for being prepared for another attack, to the extent
that's possible, but geez... hurricanes happen every year, usually more
than once each year. Florida got 4 of them last summer. Here's the thing:
by the time Katrina made its first landfall on the southeast Florida coast,
the absolutely first-class forecasters at the National Hurricane Center
were already using computer models of the weather patterns to predict its
path - and they said it would likely move into the warm Gulf of Mexico,
where the jet stream and various weather fronts would turn it northward
toward the Gulf Coast. By the time the center exited South Florida and
entered the Gulf, the NHC had already projected a "cone of probability" for
Katrina that included New Orleans, and they were predicting that Katrina
would be a Cat 4 storm by the time it hit land again. This was Thursday
night, August 25. Many analyses and scenarios had already been looked at
that considered what a Cat 4 storm would do in a direct hit on N.O., and
they were all catastrophic. So there it was - the calculated probability
of the hit was high, and the calculated results of the hit, if it happened,
were well known - 3 and a half days before it happened!!!! And FEMA did
nothing. It was officials of Louisiana and the city of New Orleans who
called for a mandatory evacuation, but without federal manpower (FEMA and
the National Guard troops) to make it happen, it was "mandatory" in name
only. If people decided not to leave, nobody even said anything to them,
let alone actually forced them to evacuate. And then, as unbelievable as
the lack of federal action with 3.5 days advance notice was, it was another
3 or 4 days before FEMA did anything that was visible to the people there.
That adds up to a week of nothing, while people were dying....
-----
Why are people blaming the Federal govt when each State is responsible for it's own disaster recovery? Here's an angle on it....
-----
Yes, there has been serious crime and lawlessness. It's pretty much under
control now that the Army is in there. It's part of the complaint against
W's government. Each of the 50 States (Louisiana, in this case) has its
contingent of "National Guard" troops. They are basically Army troops, but
are not full-time soldiers. They receive regular Army training and
equipment, but they serve generally in a "reserve" capacity. They train 2
weekends out of every month, plus 2 months every year, but live as
civilians the rest of the time. And the unique thing is, they are under
the command of each State's Governor, rather than the US Army. However,
they are subject to being called to national duty overseas. And that's the
rub. The current mess in Iraq has the US Army so overextended that it has
become the greatest overseas deployment of National Guard troops ever. By
far. The NG troops are "inserted" into regular Army units, doing jobs and
taking missions that they are not trained for. Their regular training is
truly defensive - how to maintain order and civility in their home state in
event of natural disaster or some kind of insurrection or whatever. They
are not trained to do what they are doing in Iraq. As a result, they are
getting shot up and blown up at an alarming rate. As bad as that is, it's
even worse that the states of Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama
desperately need their NG troops at home now, doing what they are very well
trained and prepared to do, but W has shipped most of them to Iraq instead.
And not just the troops, but their trucks and maintenance equipment and
everything else that they needed to evacuate people and feed and house
them. Those trucks should have been running the flooded streets of New
Orleans, but they are in Iraq instead, getting blown up by IED's....
------
This is one of the most balanced takes I've read on the situation. Some of the most unbalanced takes on the situation I've seen are on corvetteforum where people are just trying to score political points in the normal pro/anti Bush arguements that occur, or making poor excuses for the lack of action in the storm's aftermath. Others are claiming that the victims have only themselves to blame as they should have left, others are saying that they're all living on handouts anyway & are just demanding even more handouts. So I'm seeing two extremes of the US, one is the thugs who are looting & allegedly beating/raping/murdering their fellow countrymen in the wake of a disaster, the other is fairly wealthy people sitting comfortably behind computer keyboards claiming that the victims, or "refugees" as they call them, have only themselves to blame for their situation (whether they were too poor to leave, disabled, stayed to help old/sick/disabled friends or relatives, stayed to take their chances with the storm so that they could protect their property in the aftermath, stayed as they had nowhere else to go, stayed because they didn't believe the forecast, etc, etc). I've even seen one post stating that the US didn't want help from the rest of the world as it could look after itself & didn't need or want our help (this while nothing was being done to help the victims & people were dying needlessly due to lack of help). The post has since been edited. I'm not sure which is worse, the criminals who are running amok, the people who are so contemptuous of the victims that they blame them for their situation (would they take the same attitude if we were talking about somewhere like Beverly Hills & rich, predominantly, white people?), or the people so proud that they refuse aid even if their countrymen are dying?
[quote]
On a global scale it is not the same as the Tsunami, " the USA economy will be slowed for 3-4 months" but at a personal level it is no different. As we sit here wondering whether to polish the vette after breakfast, those poor poor people have lost everthing; their past, for many no doubt their future, and
God forbid, their family. In reality there is little we can do except say a prayer[/quote]
Well said. Something else to consider is that most of the people of Boscastle may now appear to have recovered from their flood, but many have lost everything of personal importance (photos, momorabilia, etc) & say that they'll never fully recover. They were insured, many in the US weren't
Somewhere in the news someone was quoted as saying that times like these bring out the best in most people and the worst in some.
The "worst in some" in this case is worse than anyone would have imagined. Without being on the streets in New Orleans I don't think any of us could understand the motivation that would drive people to the levels that some reached. If you've spent any time in New Orleans you'll know that there's a wide spectrum of folks there from the very rich to the abysmally poor. Put anyone in the streets with no water, 100 degree+ heat and humidity for any length of time and they're going to do something crazy. If two policemen (who have guns, food, water and an organised chain of command) are driven to suicide, what will a poor, disenfranchised person do when they've lost their family and home and believe they've been left behind?
The 'worst' in 'me' would be that I'm (unapologetically) staunchly anti-Bush and hence he has me shouting at the TV whenever he comes onscreen, hand-shaking, kissing 'the unfortunate', saying how he'll make sure that America is ready for an attack by a WMD... or another natural disaster like this. I can't put my hand on my heart and say that under Kerry (or A. N. Other Democrat or even Republican leader) the response would have been any better. Even so, he's such an easy target right now, it's hard not to take pot-shots. When he was interviewed the first time and asked why the federal response was so slow the man actually *smiled* before answering. Grrrr... And don't get me started on Condoleezza Rice. As one of my black American friends says, 'she ain't black no mo', she lives in the white man's house' (ebonics courtesy of her). To see her getting her hands dirty by packing tin cans into boxes for the refugees (they are *effectively* refugees! They're homeless, have left Louisiana and are seeking hospitality from another State).
Macy Gray now, she's cool. She just upped and went to Houston to volunteer at the Astrodome - because she could - not for some political spin.
While I don't think this is a time to spend time apportioning blame (am I sounding contradictory yet?), I do hope that the inquiries that are being set up actually uncover the truth of what went wrong. The possibility of this level of devastation was well known, yet funding for preventative measures (which in truth would have been too little too late) was withheld. Although I'd not heard the slant that if it weren't for the National Guard being in Iraq then things would have been handled better, it's not unreasonable, if true. I don't mean to put doubt on that, but many people have many opinions right now (and are purveying them as fact - myself included). The 'truth' is probably quite grey and probably comes down to simple beaurocracy and complacency. In the event, no-one knew who was supposed to do what. When engineers ran the scenario of a cat 5 earlier this year, everyone got out okay despite the predicted destruction.
I think about the safest thing to say about the relief effort is that it was one enormous **** up, whether that was due to poor advance planning, poor communication during the event or poor execution of the contingency plans. Let's face it, with an event of this scale, someone's going to get left behind. If it had been the people in the communities outlying Biloxi, the World media probably wouldn't have cared so much.
I'm glad to see that some Americans resident in the US are getting some news which challenges the federal party line.
One of our friends who lives in the UK stayed up a few nights back to watch the coverage on an American news channel (not CNN!) and was amazed (and in her words sickened) to see how little time was devoted to factual accounts and how many 'Praise the Lord, I survived because of Jesus' stories there were. I'm not going to go off on one about the current tide of religious zeal that's sweeping the US right now, or even say that people don't have the right to believe what they believe, but when the media uses it to appeal to the masses and get better ratings (how cynical am I?), it really grates.
The news in the UK is (to my mind) better than in the US, but is now verging on a 'yeah it happened, but let's predict the political fallout' approach. We British do like to be sharks when there's some blood in the water.
I think the idea that this'll cause a blip on the US economy for a few months is probably somewhat shortsighted. I *hope* it isn't, but this is likely to drag on and the costs are likely to spiral. The government pledge of aid was $10.5bn (initial aid for the first weeks only), then $14bn, now $100bn and probably won't stop short of $300bn. That sounds like a big enough number to cause more than ripples in the global economy.
It's hard not to get depressed about all this. 10,000 people dead (predicted), 1m people displaced. they're pumping the 'toxic waste' from New Orleans straight into Lake Ponchetrain (but what choice do they have if they want to recover the land?) - ecological disaster, anyone? There are 6 more (I believe) hurricanes predicted to come through the gulf this season... the disenfranchised poor folks just got a political voice (wait, that might be a good thing - too early to tell) and are asking why they're treated like second-class citizens (if indeed they are - have to wait for the inquiry, just not the one headed up by Bush himself!)
About the only positive slant that I could put on this (and believe me, I've been trying) is that the folks in New Orleans and along the Gulf Coast are survivors. They're no strangers to losing their homes(though not on this scale, obviously) and having the resolve to rebuild. Back in the day, Roosevelt managed to kick start the US out of the depression (hopefully I'm not confusing my American history here, it's sketchy) by putting the country to work building roads, infrastructure etc. There's a lot of building work to be done and a lot of empty hands wondering what to do next. It may sound simplistic, but I'm hoping the very act of reconstruction will be what gets the Gulf Coast economy going again.
I'm rambling, so I'll shut up. I love the spirit of some of the folks there. Saw an interview where one guy said that New Orleans wouldn't be beaten by this and that he was already looking forward to Mardi Gras next year (he then proceeded to list the Mardi Gras' that had been cancelled or delayed).
-kenski
The "worst in some" in this case is worse than anyone would have imagined. Without being on the streets in New Orleans I don't think any of us could understand the motivation that would drive people to the levels that some reached. If you've spent any time in New Orleans you'll know that there's a wide spectrum of folks there from the very rich to the abysmally poor. Put anyone in the streets with no water, 100 degree+ heat and humidity for any length of time and they're going to do something crazy. If two policemen (who have guns, food, water and an organised chain of command) are driven to suicide, what will a poor, disenfranchised person do when they've lost their family and home and believe they've been left behind?
The 'worst' in 'me' would be that I'm (unapologetically) staunchly anti-Bush and hence he has me shouting at the TV whenever he comes onscreen, hand-shaking, kissing 'the unfortunate', saying how he'll make sure that America is ready for an attack by a WMD... or another natural disaster like this. I can't put my hand on my heart and say that under Kerry (or A. N. Other Democrat or even Republican leader) the response would have been any better. Even so, he's such an easy target right now, it's hard not to take pot-shots. When he was interviewed the first time and asked why the federal response was so slow the man actually *smiled* before answering. Grrrr... And don't get me started on Condoleezza Rice. As one of my black American friends says, 'she ain't black no mo', she lives in the white man's house' (ebonics courtesy of her). To see her getting her hands dirty by packing tin cans into boxes for the refugees (they are *effectively* refugees! They're homeless, have left Louisiana and are seeking hospitality from another State).
Macy Gray now, she's cool. She just upped and went to Houston to volunteer at the Astrodome - because she could - not for some political spin.
While I don't think this is a time to spend time apportioning blame (am I sounding contradictory yet?), I do hope that the inquiries that are being set up actually uncover the truth of what went wrong. The possibility of this level of devastation was well known, yet funding for preventative measures (which in truth would have been too little too late) was withheld. Although I'd not heard the slant that if it weren't for the National Guard being in Iraq then things would have been handled better, it's not unreasonable, if true. I don't mean to put doubt on that, but many people have many opinions right now (and are purveying them as fact - myself included). The 'truth' is probably quite grey and probably comes down to simple beaurocracy and complacency. In the event, no-one knew who was supposed to do what. When engineers ran the scenario of a cat 5 earlier this year, everyone got out okay despite the predicted destruction.
I think about the safest thing to say about the relief effort is that it was one enormous **** up, whether that was due to poor advance planning, poor communication during the event or poor execution of the contingency plans. Let's face it, with an event of this scale, someone's going to get left behind. If it had been the people in the communities outlying Biloxi, the World media probably wouldn't have cared so much.
I'm glad to see that some Americans resident in the US are getting some news which challenges the federal party line.
One of our friends who lives in the UK stayed up a few nights back to watch the coverage on an American news channel (not CNN!) and was amazed (and in her words sickened) to see how little time was devoted to factual accounts and how many 'Praise the Lord, I survived because of Jesus' stories there were. I'm not going to go off on one about the current tide of religious zeal that's sweeping the US right now, or even say that people don't have the right to believe what they believe, but when the media uses it to appeal to the masses and get better ratings (how cynical am I?), it really grates.
The news in the UK is (to my mind) better than in the US, but is now verging on a 'yeah it happened, but let's predict the political fallout' approach. We British do like to be sharks when there's some blood in the water.
I think the idea that this'll cause a blip on the US economy for a few months is probably somewhat shortsighted. I *hope* it isn't, but this is likely to drag on and the costs are likely to spiral. The government pledge of aid was $10.5bn (initial aid for the first weeks only), then $14bn, now $100bn and probably won't stop short of $300bn. That sounds like a big enough number to cause more than ripples in the global economy.
It's hard not to get depressed about all this. 10,000 people dead (predicted), 1m people displaced. they're pumping the 'toxic waste' from New Orleans straight into Lake Ponchetrain (but what choice do they have if they want to recover the land?) - ecological disaster, anyone? There are 6 more (I believe) hurricanes predicted to come through the gulf this season... the disenfranchised poor folks just got a political voice (wait, that might be a good thing - too early to tell) and are asking why they're treated like second-class citizens (if indeed they are - have to wait for the inquiry, just not the one headed up by Bush himself!)
About the only positive slant that I could put on this (and believe me, I've been trying) is that the folks in New Orleans and along the Gulf Coast are survivors. They're no strangers to losing their homes(though not on this scale, obviously) and having the resolve to rebuild. Back in the day, Roosevelt managed to kick start the US out of the depression (hopefully I'm not confusing my American history here, it's sketchy) by putting the country to work building roads, infrastructure etc. There's a lot of building work to be done and a lot of empty hands wondering what to do next. It may sound simplistic, but I'm hoping the very act of reconstruction will be what gets the Gulf Coast economy going again.
I'm rambling, so I'll shut up. I love the spirit of some of the folks there. Saw an interview where one guy said that New Orleans wouldn't be beaten by this and that he was already looking forward to Mardi Gras next year (he then proceeded to list the Mardi Gras' that had been cancelled or delayed).
-kenski
And having trawled through a number of posts on US forums (primarily with a republican slant) it seems that we really are getting different news from them over there.
In truth, I doubt anyone knows 100% of what the different political players have been up to. Democrats blame the President - Republicans blame New Orleans & Louisiana State officials...
and along the track of the previous posting... Republicans blame the Mayor for not calling out the National Guard, Democrats blame the President for sending the National Guard to Iraq.
And in the middle there are the crazies (on both sides) debating who exactly God intended to punish when he did this!
-kenski
In truth, I doubt anyone knows 100% of what the different political players have been up to. Democrats blame the President - Republicans blame New Orleans & Louisiana State officials...
and along the track of the previous posting... Republicans blame the Mayor for not calling out the National Guard, Democrats blame the President for sending the National Guard to Iraq.
And in the middle there are the crazies (on both sides) debating who exactly God intended to punish when he did this!
-kenski
Some really interesting info coming out in the replies!
I've been keeping an eye on www.corvetteforum.com and there are many stories coming out on there from members and friends of theirs who are living in the middle of it, also a comment about someone having a visit from a friend who was part of the Bush circus where the NO death toll is expected to be 20 - 30k dead, its great to hear when someone checks their home and finds its still there!
I've been keeping an eye on www.corvetteforum.com and there are many stories coming out on there from members and friends of theirs who are living in the middle of it, also a comment about someone having a visit from a friend who was part of the Bush circus where the NO death toll is expected to be 20 - 30k dead, its great to hear when someone checks their home and finds its still there!
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