Trust for person yet to be conceived
Discussion
My mum died a week ago. My siblings appear to be in a hurry to get started on probate, and have told me that she wanted money to go into trust for her grandchildren (ages 1-14). Her will was very old and doesn't say this, but I'm assured there is some documentation to prove that is what she wants.
My partner and I have a one year old, and intend to try for a second. Is it possible to put money into trust for a child who has not yet been conceived?
I haven't seen the documentation; clearly if it names the grandchildren then the money simply wouldn't be there for a future child. But if it says "£x to be divided among my grandchildren" what then?
Obviously my siblings (two children each, and both have ruled out further children) may dislike this idea. However my mum knew we intended to have another.
I'm trying to avoid a situation where years from now my elder child (and the cousins) gets a healthy chunk of cash for university, and my younger doesn't. One idea I wondered about is some ringfenced money that gets divided between the five grandchildren at some point if Mrs D and I are unsuccessful.
I don't know if this is relevant, but she was terminally ill and was given a year to live just 2 months ago. Things rapidly went downhill over just a few days so we were all taken by surprise. I really don't want to even think about it until after the funeral but I fear I may get presented with a fait accomplis if I don't.
My partner and I have a one year old, and intend to try for a second. Is it possible to put money into trust for a child who has not yet been conceived?
I haven't seen the documentation; clearly if it names the grandchildren then the money simply wouldn't be there for a future child. But if it says "£x to be divided among my grandchildren" what then?
Obviously my siblings (two children each, and both have ruled out further children) may dislike this idea. However my mum knew we intended to have another.
I'm trying to avoid a situation where years from now my elder child (and the cousins) gets a healthy chunk of cash for university, and my younger doesn't. One idea I wondered about is some ringfenced money that gets divided between the five grandchildren at some point if Mrs D and I are unsuccessful.
I don't know if this is relevant, but she was terminally ill and was given a year to live just 2 months ago. Things rapidly went downhill over just a few days so we were all taken by surprise. I really don't want to even think about it until after the funeral but I fear I may get presented with a fait accomplis if I don't.
Who is/are the executors named in the will? Who is going to be the trustee of the trust/s? What happens if one of the grandchildren turns out to be a drug addict scum bag? What happens if one of them does not make it to 18/21? Or marries a scumbag?
Whilst you mother had good intentions often the reality is not worth the hassle. Better spilt the estate as per the will, then let the siblings/parents make provision for their own children.
Whilst you mother had good intentions often the reality is not worth the hassle. Better spilt the estate as per the will, then let the siblings/parents make provision for their own children.
I would say, unless its specified that it should include future grandchildren, then the money should just be distributed between the existing grandchildren, what happens if your plans dont come to fruition for some reason, would you give the money back when the trust ended? what if you brothers/sisters said that they are thinking about having more children when you speak to them about it, are you then going to accept that and distribute it accordingly.
I would say, take the portion allocated to you, and either split it between the current child, or just set up an account yourself.
Are you happy to split it in an uneven portion so that the older children get more, as the money wont be in savings as long, so they wont get as much at maturity as your 1 year old does, and then what about the issue that your current child wouldnt get as much as the younger child, because you would have been saving for the younger child.
I would say, take the portion allocated to you, and either split it between the current child, or just set up an account yourself.
Are you happy to split it in an uneven portion so that the older children get more, as the money wont be in savings as long, so they wont get as much at maturity as your 1 year old does, and then what about the issue that your current child wouldnt get as much as the younger child, because you would have been saving for the younger child.
It would be possible to do but it's unlikely your mother did it. Putting stuff in a trust for a not-yet-born kid has a load of issues with what happens if more kids are born after the money is gone, or someone never has kids and there's cash left over. You'd have to write it as "up to 2 kids per adult until the adult is 40 at which point the leftover gets divided amongst kids that are currently born" or some nonsense.
I wouldn't even bring it up
I wouldn't even bring it up
donkmeister said:
My siblings appear to be in a hurry to get started on probate, and have told me that she wanted money to go into trust for her grandchildren (ages 1-14). Her will was very old and doesn't say this, but I'm assured there is some documentation to prove that is what she wants.
So what they're basically saying is 'f
k the Will, this is what we want'.Is the age of a Will relevant? You put it in the past tense as though it doesn't matter. Is 'some documentation' relevant either, and can they produce it?
Who are the Executors?
I would be suspicious.
Sorry for your loss.
This needs a bit more thought between you and your siblings on how to handle it.
The grandchildren will reach maturity at different points in their lives. If each child has access to their share of the trust at that point then some capital needs to be taken out of the trust (if that is how it is set up). As you’ll no doubt invest the trust for growth, it’s impossible to ensure everyone gets an identical amount/benefit from the trust at the point they gain access. There are of course calculations that can be made (bit like pension annuities) for a “fair” share of a pot but if Johnny gets £8000 in 2025 and Janet gets £10000 in 2028 that can lead to issues (even though Johnny had the benefit of the money earlier etc.)
If it’s some years before the currently oldest grandchild reaches maturity then you can put the money in a single trust for the benefit of “the grandchildren” and that gives you a few years to squirt out #2. The trust can be set up so that the Trustees have discretion on how to allocate.
Alternatively separate trusts can be set up in individual beneficiary names, but that will exclude your hypothetical #2 unless you can persuade your siblings to set up a sixth trust where Trustees have discretion, and it is used for your #2 or split between existing 5. However some siblings might say “granny’s wishes were to benefit the grandchildren that she knew” not some hypothetical others, so it can be divisive.
Alternatively you can set up a trust where the capital stays invested and the Trustees can allocate any growth to beneficiaries of their choice, which could be the named 5 or “any children of donkmeister and his siblings (to a maximum of 2)”.
In short, it’s not straightforward to account for an non-existant individual without careful setup of the initial Trust. You and your siblings will definitely need to agree how to handle it; because their children will effectively be “worse off” (but only by one thirtieth share) they might not agree.
Try not to let future imponderables affect your family relationships; if positions vary then my advice would be to be the bigger man and give up any share for hypothetical #2.
But talk to a Trust specialist about your options, and see if you can agree principles with your siblings.
This needs a bit more thought between you and your siblings on how to handle it.
The grandchildren will reach maturity at different points in their lives. If each child has access to their share of the trust at that point then some capital needs to be taken out of the trust (if that is how it is set up). As you’ll no doubt invest the trust for growth, it’s impossible to ensure everyone gets an identical amount/benefit from the trust at the point they gain access. There are of course calculations that can be made (bit like pension annuities) for a “fair” share of a pot but if Johnny gets £8000 in 2025 and Janet gets £10000 in 2028 that can lead to issues (even though Johnny had the benefit of the money earlier etc.)
If it’s some years before the currently oldest grandchild reaches maturity then you can put the money in a single trust for the benefit of “the grandchildren” and that gives you a few years to squirt out #2. The trust can be set up so that the Trustees have discretion on how to allocate.
Alternatively separate trusts can be set up in individual beneficiary names, but that will exclude your hypothetical #2 unless you can persuade your siblings to set up a sixth trust where Trustees have discretion, and it is used for your #2 or split between existing 5. However some siblings might say “granny’s wishes were to benefit the grandchildren that she knew” not some hypothetical others, so it can be divisive.
Alternatively you can set up a trust where the capital stays invested and the Trustees can allocate any growth to beneficiaries of their choice, which could be the named 5 or “any children of donkmeister and his siblings (to a maximum of 2)”.
In short, it’s not straightforward to account for an non-existant individual without careful setup of the initial Trust. You and your siblings will definitely need to agree how to handle it; because their children will effectively be “worse off” (but only by one thirtieth share) they might not agree.
Try not to let future imponderables affect your family relationships; if positions vary then my advice would be to be the bigger man and give up any share for hypothetical #2.
But talk to a Trust specialist about your options, and see if you can agree principles with your siblings.
Firstly what does the will and any applicable codicils actually say ?
If nothing else is written down then the above is what the Executors will presumably have to adhere to.
When my grandmother died, her will left money to 2 of my children ( 5% each ) but the third wasn't left anything as had been born post the will and sadly by then her memory and overall mental capacity was failing.
As both were less than 10 years old at the time ( all 3 were ) the money was paid to me , I talked to them all and suggested that the fairest thing was to simply pool the 10% and divide by 3 ie each child got 3.33%.
They agreed and I invested it accordingly.
If nothing else is written down then the above is what the Executors will presumably have to adhere to.
When my grandmother died, her will left money to 2 of my children ( 5% each ) but the third wasn't left anything as had been born post the will and sadly by then her memory and overall mental capacity was failing.
As both were less than 10 years old at the time ( all 3 were ) the money was paid to me , I talked to them all and suggested that the fairest thing was to simply pool the 10% and divide by 3 ie each child got 3.33%.
They agreed and I invested it accordingly.
It's hard to say how many grandchildren the OP's and siblings will ultimately end up with, there may be a divorce, new relationship, or maybe even another child even when people say they are done (and there is always the chance of twins). Sounds like none of those were considered in the will.
You can only deal with the here and now and as it stands you have one child and they have two. So that is how the cookie crumbles
To the OP rather than causing upset why not just take the money YOU receive and use some of that for your expected child. Everyone stays happy. If you mum wrote her will the way she did those were here wishes and whatever she said subsequently (unless it was clearly communicated to all the beneficiaries in which case you are relying on their goodwill) doesn't matter.
The will is the only thing that matters and if you contest it then you lose to stand a lot more than just the money.
You can only deal with the here and now and as it stands you have one child and they have two. So that is how the cookie crumbles
To the OP rather than causing upset why not just take the money YOU receive and use some of that for your expected child. Everyone stays happy. If you mum wrote her will the way she did those were here wishes and whatever she said subsequently (unless it was clearly communicated to all the beneficiaries in which case you are relying on their goodwill) doesn't matter.
The will is the only thing that matters and if you contest it then you lose to stand a lot more than just the money.
Have you seen and have a copy of the will? If you are not an executor then you may not get to see the will or the other documentation or know the value of the estate until after probate is granted and you download a copy of the will from the probate website.
The extra documentation could be a valid codicil but may not be valid to affect the will and could be challenged.
If funds are left in trust for your first child then you may not have the authority to deprive that child of their inheritance to pay out to another child.
Unfortunately there is a huge possibility for ruining your relationship with you siblings and a real danger of your children's sibling relationship being affected.
The extra documentation could be a valid codicil but may not be valid to affect the will and could be challenged.
If funds are left in trust for your first child then you may not have the authority to deprive that child of their inheritance to pay out to another child.
Unfortunately there is a huge possibility for ruining your relationship with you siblings and a real danger of your children's sibling relationship being affected.
Actual said:
Have you seen and have a copy of the will? If you are not an executor then you may not get to see the will or the other documentation or know the value of the estate until after probate is granted and you download a copy of the will from the probate website.
The extra documentation could be a valid codicil but may not be valid to affect the will and could be challenged.
If funds are left in trust for your first child then you may not have the authority to deprive that child of their inheritance to pay out to another child.
Unfortunately there is a huge possibility for ruining your relationship with you siblings and a real danger of your children's sibling relationship being affected.
Firstly, sorry for your loss, and having to deal with this at what must be a difficult time for all involved.The extra documentation could be a valid codicil but may not be valid to affect the will and could be challenged.
If funds are left in trust for your first child then you may not have the authority to deprive that child of their inheritance to pay out to another child.
Unfortunately there is a huge possibility for ruining your relationship with you siblings and a real danger of your children's sibling relationship being affected.
You could make a Larke vs Nugus request which should provide you with a copy of the will, and any other documentation held by the solicitor who drew up the will.
However, as far as I'm aware, if the will just says that whatever money is to be split between the grandchildren, then this would be split between the grandchildren who were in existence at the time of death. It would, obviously, depend on the exact wording of the will.
I guess, it may have been better if the will stated that the estate (or proportion of it) should be split between the children of the deceased and that this should be put in trust for the grandchildren.
As has already been mentioned several times, challenging the will may well have significant impact on your relationship with your siblings.
In relation to all the above, IANAL, so it's just ramblings from some random bloke on the internet.
If it's a fixed trust then you couldn't include unborn children. A discretionary trust can. I am a beneficiary of one that includes unborn children.
However, the nature of the trust is determined by the Will. The beneficiaries in the trust cannot be changed without the agreement of the beneficiaries. In the above case they are all under 18 so they cannot consent.
However, the nature of the trust is determined by the Will. The beneficiaries in the trust cannot be changed without the agreement of the beneficiaries. In the above case they are all under 18 so they cannot consent.
vonhosen said:
It's important to make changes to your (or new) will following major life events (marriage, divorce, births, deaths etc).
Sound advice. I should add that the law revokes your Will automatically on marriage. And you should think about changing your Will on seperation rather than waiting for divorce, in case you die in the meantime. Update: turns out that the document of my mum's wishes was actually a conversation in which she asked my sister to make an appointment to update said will (no reason to doubt it all, my mum was getting her house in order and had asked me to do various things too)... Also I am joint executor of her will, and now I have a copy of said will I can see it leaves everything to my dad, unless he had died in which case it is split three ways.
So, the information I had was duff. I just need to do the business to get my dad what my mum left him. Simple probate (famous last words!).
So, the information I had was duff. I just need to do the business to get my dad what my mum left him. Simple probate (famous last words!).
donkmeister said:
Update: turns out that the document of my mum's wishes was actually a conversation in which she asked my sister to make an appointment to update said will (no reason to doubt it all, my mum was getting her house in order and had asked me to do various things too)... Also I am joint executor of her will, and now I have a copy of said will I can see it leaves everything to my dad, unless he had died in which case it is split three ways.
So, the information I had was duff. I just need to do the business to get my dad what my mum left him. Simple probate (famous last words!).
Aye, perhaps you could have a word with your dad to distribute the funds in a different way when he dies - something along the lines of "split x amount evenly between my children, for the benefit of their children".So, the information I had was duff. I just need to do the business to get my dad what my mum left him. Simple probate (famous last words!).
We encountered a similar (unfair) term in my Gran's will. She had provided for her children, and their partners, and her grandchildren. However my father had died, which meant that my aunt & uncle got more money than my mother. Not something we would fall out over, but I'm still unhappy about it 10+ years later! Grandchildren numbers were even (2 each).
If you seek to achieve fairness, then percentages per child would be the best. Then you can establish a trust fund for your children (keeping it vague as to how many) which you can administer - if you don't manage the second child then the whole lot goes to the first. If you have a third, then you can also manage that! And the sums from the grandparents are even between siblings.
@donkmeister
I cannot add to the thoughtful & informed comments above, but I will make one observation that isn't directly related, but might be helpful:
You can open a pension for your child, children as early as you like.
So - if you find yourself with some funds you would wish reflect in your child/future children's lives: set that aside in some safe but accessible 'vehicle' - sep savings account, NSi bonds, or to taste - and as they come along, divvie-up and set up a pension pot for each with that fund. (You then assign each pension on maturity or at an agreed age, basically )
18years + of compounded pension-fund growth, on even a small starter, plus say, birthday gifts (which if contributed, like the 'seed' investment, will gain tax relief ie +25%) will alter your children's future range of choices in a huge, positive way.
ATB to you at a difficult time.
I cannot add to the thoughtful & informed comments above, but I will make one observation that isn't directly related, but might be helpful:
You can open a pension for your child, children as early as you like.
So - if you find yourself with some funds you would wish reflect in your child/future children's lives: set that aside in some safe but accessible 'vehicle' - sep savings account, NSi bonds, or to taste - and as they come along, divvie-up and set up a pension pot for each with that fund. (You then assign each pension on maturity or at an agreed age, basically )
18years + of compounded pension-fund growth, on even a small starter, plus say, birthday gifts (which if contributed, like the 'seed' investment, will gain tax relief ie +25%) will alter your children's future range of choices in a huge, positive way.
ATB to you at a difficult time.
Edited by Huff on Friday 20th October 18:55
donkmeister said:
So, the information I had was duff. I just need to do the business to get my dad what my mum left him. Simple probate (famous last words!).
As husband and wife it could be that everything is jointly owned so on the death of your mum as first death your dad does not need to inherit becuase he already owns everything that your mum owns. For anything in just your mum's name then if the values are small then you may not need to obtain probate for your mum.When your dad dies you could have inheritance tax allowance of 2 x £350K plus for the family home the residence nil rate band of 2 x £175K and so if the estate value is under £1M there could be no inheritance tax to pay.
If there is no inheritance tax to pay then HMRC are not involved and probate can be obtained online and may only need 2 figures for the net and gross values of the estate.
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