Highway Code 170
Discussion
Apologies for going all "Jeremy Vine", but as a keen petrolhead and also a keen walker who walks several miles a day, I've noticed that the new highway code rules brought in at the start of 2022 giving pedestrians the right of way when waiting to cross road junctions are disregarded by the vast majority of motorists. I'm trying to think of another section of the Highway code to be honest which is so disregarded and I am struggling. Should it be dropped? I mean it might be safer in the long run because at least everyone knew where they were in the old system. Do we need the return of those old "public information" adverts? Not sure what the answer is but the vast majority of drivers are either ignorant of the changes, or have just decided wholesale to ignore them..... I kind of get why, because with my driver's hat on I know it can be pretty dangerous to have to stop before turning at a junction to give way to pedestrians and risk being rear ended, but overall, I just think most drivers can't be arsed and ultimately they know few people will want to argue with 1.5 tons of metal when it comes down to it..........
I have noticed that some drivers will wait and let you go and others don't - it is confusing, and you are right I do wonder about cars being rear-ended "waiting" and this makes me quite uneasy.
The onus is on me to not get run over, is the way I see it, as I was told in the 70s as a kid by public info films. Just wait until it is safe to cross.
I guess experiences will vary depending on the type of area people live with density of roads v cars
The onus is on me to not get run over, is the way I see it, as I was told in the 70s as a kid by public info films. Just wait until it is safe to cross.
I guess experiences will vary depending on the type of area people live with density of roads v cars
There isn't a person in the country over the age of thirty that knows anything about the highway code, or is ever likely to refer to it.
That is because experience on the road is more important and people who refer to the highway code in threads are a little ....odd.
The true power of the changes, is not that everyone is going to read the highway code or take notice of its changes. Its when the bad stuff happens and the court legislates the daily fail will publish, and people will slowly learn not to follow.
There will be a very gradual understanding that pedestrians, or for that matter any vulnerable user of the road has priority over the faster less vulnerable user.
If you arrive at the scene of an accident where a car has run over a pedestrian, the car driver better have a damn good reason why, and those reasons are getting less over time, which is what it should be, and probably ever was, for people of a little experience.
That is because experience on the road is more important and people who refer to the highway code in threads are a little ....odd.
The true power of the changes, is not that everyone is going to read the highway code or take notice of its changes. Its when the bad stuff happens and the court legislates the daily fail will publish, and people will slowly learn not to follow.
There will be a very gradual understanding that pedestrians, or for that matter any vulnerable user of the road has priority over the faster less vulnerable user.
If you arrive at the scene of an accident where a car has run over a pedestrian, the car driver better have a damn good reason why, and those reasons are getting less over time, which is what it should be, and probably ever was, for people of a little experience.
greenarrow said:
I kind of get why, because with my driver's hat on I know it can be pretty dangerous to have to stop before turning at a junction to give way to pedestrians and risk being rear ended
I don't believe most drivers think that far ahead, they're just troglodyte simpletons sitting there going "me in car, me want go that way, me important, you wait" greenarrow said:
I've noticed that the new highway code rules brought in at the start of 2022 giving pedestrians the right of way when waiting to cross road junctions are disregarded by the vast majority of motorists.
Nothing has changed. Previously, motorists were not allowed to run down peds at junctions.The law didn't change.
The wording of the Highway Code was modified to make things clearer, which seems to have caused more confusion.
It is simplest to consider the ped as continuing along the main road (yes they are at the side, on the pavement, but it is still part of that highway)... You wouldn't drive over a cyclist that was going straight ahead at a side road. why would you treat a ped any differently?
It is a most ridiculous and badly thought out rule. Apart from the risk of being rear-ended, possibly at speed, shunting you into the crossing pedestrian, it also requires the understanding and cooperation of other drivers approaching the junction. There is a lot of potential for it to go wrong.
I'll preface this by saying, pedestrians are as bad as cyclists are as bad as car drivers are as bad as van drivers are as bad as bus drivers are as bad as truck drivers in committing infringements...but you'd think the soft & squishier you are the more attention you'd pay to your surroundings.
Ultimately it's always a fallible human brain controlling our actions, and because physics a moving pedestrian walking into a stationary vehicle is going to do less damage than a vehicle driving into a stationary (or slow moving) pedestrian.
The highway code is full of examples where the meaning is interpreted to match a specific viewpoint...and rules being ignored all over the place.
One of my favourites is at zebra crossings, where the pedestrian are told to STOP & WAIT for traffic to stop before crossing (there is no MUST or SHOULD in this though), and vehicles SHOULD give way to pedestrians WAITING TO CROSS...but the MUST stop is only if they're ALREADY ON THE CROSSING.
But plenty of people will argue that you have to do an emergency stop as soon as someone approaches a crossing, and a pedestrian feels they can just cross it without stopping...because the vehicle MUST stop as soon as they touch the crossing.
Then we give pedestrians invincibility with Rule 170 which some people thinks gives pedestrians the right to walk all over the roads without even glancing around.
This is in addition to the current Highway Code rules for pedestrians (some of who will never have read it), which tells them (amongst other things) to:
None of that tells them to just walk across roads without stopping, or to walk into traffic whilst they've got headphones in and are scrolling through ThikTok.
Ultimately it's always a fallible human brain controlling our actions, and because physics a moving pedestrian walking into a stationary vehicle is going to do less damage than a vehicle driving into a stationary (or slow moving) pedestrian.
The highway code is full of examples where the meaning is interpreted to match a specific viewpoint...and rules being ignored all over the place.
One of my favourites is at zebra crossings, where the pedestrian are told to STOP & WAIT for traffic to stop before crossing (there is no MUST or SHOULD in this though), and vehicles SHOULD give way to pedestrians WAITING TO CROSS...but the MUST stop is only if they're ALREADY ON THE CROSSING.
But plenty of people will argue that you have to do an emergency stop as soon as someone approaches a crossing, and a pedestrian feels they can just cross it without stopping...because the vehicle MUST stop as soon as they touch the crossing.
Then we give pedestrians invincibility with Rule 170 which some people thinks gives pedestrians the right to walk all over the roads without even glancing around.
This is in addition to the current Highway Code rules for pedestrians (some of who will never have read it), which tells them (amongst other things) to:
HWC said:
Rule 7
- First find a safe place to cross and where there is space to reach the pavement on the other side. Where there is a crossing nearby, use it. It is safer to cross using a subway, a footbridge, an island, a zebra, pelican, toucan or puffin crossing, or where there is a crossing point controlled by a police officer, a school crossing patrol or a traffic warden. Otherwise choose a place where you can see clearly in all directions. Try to avoid crossing between parked cars (see Rule 14), on a blind bend, or close to the brow of a hill. Move to a space where drivers and riders can see you clearly. Do not cross the road diagonally.
- Stop just before you get to the kerb, where you can see if anything is coming. Do not get too close to the traffic. If there’s no pavement, keep back from the edge of the road but make sure you can still see approaching traffic.
- Look all around for traffic and listen. Traffic could come from any direction. Listen as well, because you can sometimes hear traffic before you see it.
- If traffic is coming, let it pass. Look all around again and listen. Do not cross until there is a safe gap in the traffic and you are certain that there is plenty of time. Remember, even if traffic is a long way off, it may be approaching very quickly.
HWC said:
Rule 8
- At a junction. When you are crossing or waiting to cross the road, other traffic should give way. Look out for traffic turning into the road, especially from behind you, and cross at a place where drivers can see you. If you have started crossing and traffic wants to turn into the road, you have priority and they should give way (see Rules H2 and 170).
HWC said:
Rule 18
At all crossings. When using any type of crossing you should
At all crossings. When using any type of crossing you should
- always check that the traffic has stopped before you start to cross or push a pram onto a crossing
- always cross between the studs or over the zebra markings. Do not cross at the side of the crossing or on the zig-zag lines, as it can be dangerous.
HWC said:
Rule 19
Zebra crossings. Give traffic plenty of time to see you and to stop before you start to cross. Vehicles will need more time when the road is slippery. Wait until traffic has stopped from both directions or the road is clear before crossing. Remember that traffic does not have to stop until someone has moved onto the crossing. Drivers and riders should give way to pedestrians waiting to cross and MUST give way to pedestrians on a zebra crossing (see Rule H2). Keep looking both ways, and listening, in case a driver or rider has not seen you and attempts to overtake a vehicle that has stopped.
etc.Zebra crossings. Give traffic plenty of time to see you and to stop before you start to cross. Vehicles will need more time when the road is slippery. Wait until traffic has stopped from both directions or the road is clear before crossing. Remember that traffic does not have to stop until someone has moved onto the crossing. Drivers and riders should give way to pedestrians waiting to cross and MUST give way to pedestrians on a zebra crossing (see Rule H2). Keep looking both ways, and listening, in case a driver or rider has not seen you and attempts to overtake a vehicle that has stopped.
None of that tells them to just walk across roads without stopping, or to walk into traffic whilst they've got headphones in and are scrolling through ThikTok.
Edited by mmm-five on Tuesday 24th October 09:55
Drivers don't drive on the pavements so any pedestrian hit must be in the road. Surely it should be everyone's, including pedestrians, aim to to take care of themselves & not take unnecessary risks. Yes, as a driver, I make every effort I can to avoid pedestrians but surely they should also take responsibility for their own safety.
Expecting pedestrians to look around & be aware before crossing the road seems a reasonable expectation. If they all did that there would be many less injured or killed by vehicles.
Perhaps more effort should be put into educating pedestrians rather putting all the blame on drivers.
I have had one coming together with a pedestrian when a young girl ran out from between parked cars into the rear door of my car. The mother blamed me!
Expecting pedestrians to look around & be aware before crossing the road seems a reasonable expectation. If they all did that there would be many less injured or killed by vehicles.
Perhaps more effort should be put into educating pedestrians rather putting all the blame on drivers.
I have had one coming together with a pedestrian when a young girl ran out from between parked cars into the rear door of my car. The mother blamed me!
Glosphil said:
Drivers don't drive on the pavements so any pedestrian hit must be in the road. Surely it should be everyone's, including pedestrians, aim to to take care of themselves & not take unnecessary risks. Yes, as a driver, I make every effort I can to avoid pedestrians but surely they should also take responsibility for their own safety.
Expecting pedestrians to look around & be aware before crossing the road seems a reasonable expectation. If they all did that there would be many less injured or killed by vehicles.
Perhaps more effort should be put into educating pedestrians rather putting all the blame on drivers.
I have had one coming together with a pedestrian when a young girl ran out from between parked cars into the rear door of my car. The mother blamed me!
Bring back the Tufty Club! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Ry9tiz9_c&ab...Expecting pedestrians to look around & be aware before crossing the road seems a reasonable expectation. If they all did that there would be many less injured or killed by vehicles.
Perhaps more effort should be put into educating pedestrians rather putting all the blame on drivers.
I have had one coming together with a pedestrian when a young girl ran out from between parked cars into the rear door of my car. The mother blamed me!
Personally, I have always been of the mind that I will look out for my own safety rather than rely on the "rules of the road" based on the principle that it is always better to be alive & uninjured than "in the right".
Sadly, many people are not of this opinion.
Only last week some eejit teenager (who has likely been told it is his right) simply walked straight out without looking when on the blind side of a van at a T-junction and then looked at me like he was God just because the accident (I very narrowly avoided with an emergency stop) would technically have been my fault.
Self-preservation is always good practice!
Sadly, many people are not of this opinion.
Only last week some eejit teenager (who has likely been told it is his right) simply walked straight out without looking when on the blind side of a van at a T-junction and then looked at me like he was God just because the accident (I very narrowly avoided with an emergency stop) would technically have been my fault.
Self-preservation is always good practice!
Glosphil said:
Drivers don't drive on the pavements so any pedestrian hit must be in the road. Surely it should be everyone's, including pedestrians, aim to to take care of themselves & not take unnecessary risks. Yes, as a driver, I make every effort I can to avoid pedestrians but surely they should also take responsibility for their own safety.
Absolutely, some common sense required as well as 'it is my right or way/priority'._Hoppers said:
greenarrow said:
Should it be dropped?.........
The previous HC stated you should give way to pedestrians who have started to cross the junction you're turning into, but that was largely ignored too!E-bmw said:
Personally, I have always been of the mind that I will look out for my own safety rather than rely on the "rules of the road" based on the principle that it is always better to be alive & uninjured than "in the right".
Sadly, many people are not of this opinion.
Only last week some eejit teenager (who has likely been told it is his right) simply walked straight out without looking when on the blind side of a van at a T-junction and then looked at me like he was God just because the accident (I very narrowly avoided with an emergency stop) would technically have been my fault.
Self-preservation is always good practice!
This issue has become increasingly common in society generally. The attitude is no longer "how can I avoid an accident?", but "it doesn't matter if an accident happens as it will be the other person's fault".Sadly, many people are not of this opinion.
Only last week some eejit teenager (who has likely been told it is his right) simply walked straight out without looking when on the blind side of a van at a T-junction and then looked at me like he was God just because the accident (I very narrowly avoided with an emergency stop) would technically have been my fault.
Self-preservation is always good practice!
This attitude works until you're lying in hospital or even on a slab.
The rule should stay for one simple reason.
Most pedestrians (and most cyclists) give way to cars regardless of priority (per the most important rule - give way if it will avoid a collision) because self preservation; they will get hurt in a collision.
Drivers are far less motivated because they are in a position of strength; They will never get hurt in a collision with a pedestrian (or cyclist etc).
A huge chunk of the motivation a driver has to give way in these cases is that if they don't there insurance is going to increase after the claim (and they might get prosecuted...).
There are plenty of roads where if the rules were changed, between poor (near non-existant) indicating, inability to prove this in an incident, excess speed through manouvres and heavy traffic it is impossible for a pedestrian to give way to turning cars and still cross - You need to start crossing before most drivers start to indicate. And the pedestrian is now giving way to traffic from multiple directions including behind them; It is relatively rare that a driver needs to give way to a pedestrian approaching behind them. Generally even with cyclists I suspect 80+% of the time the only reason they are giving way to someone from behind is because they overtook immediately before turning...
Most pedestrians (and most cyclists) give way to cars regardless of priority (per the most important rule - give way if it will avoid a collision) because self preservation; they will get hurt in a collision.
Drivers are far less motivated because they are in a position of strength; They will never get hurt in a collision with a pedestrian (or cyclist etc).
A huge chunk of the motivation a driver has to give way in these cases is that if they don't there insurance is going to increase after the claim (and they might get prosecuted...).
There are plenty of roads where if the rules were changed, between poor (near non-existant) indicating, inability to prove this in an incident, excess speed through manouvres and heavy traffic it is impossible for a pedestrian to give way to turning cars and still cross - You need to start crossing before most drivers start to indicate. And the pedestrian is now giving way to traffic from multiple directions including behind them; It is relatively rare that a driver needs to give way to a pedestrian approaching behind them. Generally even with cyclists I suspect 80+% of the time the only reason they are giving way to someone from behind is because they overtook immediately before turning...
No ideas for a name said:
greenarrow said:
I've noticed that the new highway code rules brought in at the start of 2022 giving pedestrians the right of way when waiting to cross road junctions are disregarded by the vast majority of motorists.
Nothing has changed. Previously, motorists were not allowed to run down peds at junctions.The law didn't change.
The wording of the Highway Code was modified to make things clearer, which seems to have caused more confusion.
It is simplest to consider the ped as continuing along the main road (yes they are at the side, on the pavement, but it is still part of that highway)... You wouldn't drive over a cyclist that was going straight ahead at a side road. why would you treat a ped any differently?
The thread has slightly been derailed by comments about pedestrians not paying attention and wearing headphones etc, all of which I agree with. The issue I am highlighting is that in my experience only a tiny percentage of motorists are "Giving way to pedestrians".
Rule 170, "give way to pedestrians crossing or waiting to cross a road from into which or from which you are turning".
How often do you see someone in a car actually allow someone to cross who hasn't started crossing yet?
This issue has particular relevance where I live as in our village we have quite a wide junction on the main road where a tesco express is on the right hand side as you turn into the road. We also have a lot of elderly residents. I've seen so many occasions recently where elderly people who have already stepped off the pavement to cross the junction have nearly been taken out by impatient drivers who have swung into the road at speed from left or right in one of those, late brake, indicate as you're turning, type manouevres.... we've had two serious injuries involving elderly people in recent years, so its only a matter of time...........
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff