Boats and the Economy
Discussion
Tootled down to Portsmouth last week to get my RiB out of drystack and bring it home for the winter.
Wandering about outside waiting for my turn to be loaded, it struck me that whilst the world is going mad, there seems to be no shortage of very shiny boats tucked away in this enormous shed, it's packed floor to ceiling! That is my very real Shogun with an 8m trailer looking like a toy outside just for scale.
I hear mixed stories about the small boat market, some good, some bad and it'll be interesting to see how the next year pans out.
Wandering about outside waiting for my turn to be loaded, it struck me that whilst the world is going mad, there seems to be no shortage of very shiny boats tucked away in this enormous shed, it's packed floor to ceiling! That is my very real Shogun with an 8m trailer looking like a toy outside just for scale.
I hear mixed stories about the small boat market, some good, some bad and it'll be interesting to see how the next year pans out.
It depends which sector you apply this to. Right now the super and mega yacht markets continue to be strong. It's a sector we supply into and the demand for our products continues to grow. But we are noticing a softening of the market at the lower end (sub 70ft).
A few of my suppliers also provide the volume builders in Poland (Axopar, Saxdor, Nimbus, etc...) and they have seen a massive drop off. The pandemic and its associated travel restrictions changed the way people spent their money. Lots of people bought into locally based lifestyle products (boats, campervans, tents), and demand soared. But now the real cost of owning these products is starting to become apparent and they are looking to get out. The second hand market is saturated and this has impacted new builds. So, there's a lot of relatively new looking stock out there, but it's not necessarily a sign of a strong situation.
A few of my suppliers also provide the volume builders in Poland (Axopar, Saxdor, Nimbus, etc...) and they have seen a massive drop off. The pandemic and its associated travel restrictions changed the way people spent their money. Lots of people bought into locally based lifestyle products (boats, campervans, tents), and demand soared. But now the real cost of owning these products is starting to become apparent and they are looking to get out. The second hand market is saturated and this has impacted new builds. So, there's a lot of relatively new looking stock out there, but it's not necessarily a sign of a strong situation.
Boatbuoy said:
It depends which sector you apply this to. Right now the super and mega yacht markets continue to be strong. It's a sector we supply into and the demand for our products continues to grow. But we are noticing a softening of the market at the lower end (sub 70ft).
A few of my suppliers also provide the volume builders in Poland (Axopar, Saxdor, Nimbus, etc...) and they have seen a massive drop off. The pandemic and its associated travel restrictions changed the way people spent their money. Lots of people bought into locally based lifestyle products (boats, campervans, tents), and demand soared. But now the real cost of owning these products is starting to become apparent and they are looking to get out. The second hand market is saturated and this has impacted new builds. So, there's a lot of relatively new looking stock out there, but it's not necessarily a sign of a strong situation.
I agree entirely and interesting to read your view. A few of my suppliers also provide the volume builders in Poland (Axopar, Saxdor, Nimbus, etc...) and they have seen a massive drop off. The pandemic and its associated travel restrictions changed the way people spent their money. Lots of people bought into locally based lifestyle products (boats, campervans, tents), and demand soared. But now the real cost of owning these products is starting to become apparent and they are looking to get out. The second hand market is saturated and this has impacted new builds. So, there's a lot of relatively new looking stock out there, but it's not necessarily a sign of a strong situation.
The boat market absolutely flew in Lockdown. The used stock was hoovered up over a period of 18 months. Even well used, rattly Sigmas (think a Ginetta G40 that's been tracked to death) were selling.
Problem was, the manufacturers struggled to keep pace with demand, and consequently, as the market reversed, found themselves holding a lot of stock and a very light order books.
Same is happening in the caravan and lodge market - the manufacturers are really struggling and sales of new and late model used have dropped off a cliff.
For the mid market, this is due to latent demand begin absorbed, so there are now fewer buyers in the markets, they've all bought. Also, the cost of borrowing is much higher, resi market flat, so people are not using equity from house sale to buy a boat/ car/ lodge and Brexit means European craft are more expensive.
Post Covid the used boat market was very buoyant (please excuse pun) I have a couple of friends that made a very substantial( £10s of K) profit selling their used yachts. I was lucky and just caught the tail end and sold mine for the sum a i paid for her 2.5 years previously.
We are now back to a more normal market not dissimilar to the used car market where depreciation is returning to historic norms.
The Southampton boat show seemed a bit downbeat this year which may be indicative of the current state of the market.
We used to have an old adage. To make a small fortune in the boat building industry start with a very big one.
We are now back to a more normal market not dissimilar to the used car market where depreciation is returning to historic norms.
The Southampton boat show seemed a bit downbeat this year which may be indicative of the current state of the market.
We used to have an old adage. To make a small fortune in the boat building industry start with a very big one.
Nomme de Plum said:
We used to have an old adage. To make a small fortune in the boat building industry start with a very big one.
Borrowed from Lord Hesketh I think.On the Covid boom theme, a cousin of mine wanted to buy a motorhome - but objected to the premium they were fetching, so didn't. Perhaps she can get one cheaper now - but she's missed three years of holidays with it, and that has a value too.
I could have sold my boat for a high price in the 'staycation' period, but would rather have the boat.
Simpo Two said:
Nomme de Plum said:
We used to have an old adage. To make a small fortune in the boat building industry start with a very big one.
Borrowed from Lord Hesketh I think.On the Covid boom theme, a cousin of mine wanted to buy a motorhome - but objected to the premium they were fetching, so didn't. Perhaps she can get one cheaper now - but she's missed three years of holidays with it, and that has a value too.
I could have sold my boat for a high price in the 'staycation' period, but would rather have the boat.
Nomme de Plum said:
I sold my racer cruiser which really needed a crew of 8+ to race properly (it had a problematic 2.2m keel also) and replaced it 7 months later with a proper cruising yacht that I can single hand if i wish.
I was in the process of getting a new tub - my previous was like yours, offshore racing kit with big rig, running backstays and needed a decent crewSoon as I drew up my shortlist, covid hit and the price of boats went mental.
Decided to put the money back in the bank
Very amusing at the moment where people are selling boats & motor homes. Who wants either at this time of the year when they'll have to store or pay moorings for the next 5-6 months. A lot of these are up for strong money.
When I had a boat moored at Wargrave in the late 80s, Ours was a 20ft cruiser but there was stuff 40 feet plus that A. cost a fortune & B. cost a forture for mooring fees that never moved from one month to the next.
When I had a boat moored at Wargrave in the late 80s, Ours was a 20ft cruiser but there was stuff 40 feet plus that A. cost a fortune & B. cost a forture for mooring fees that never moved from one month to the next.
Castrol for a knave said:
Boatbuoy said:
It depends which sector you apply this to. Right now the super and mega yacht markets continue to be strong. It's a sector we supply into and the demand for our products continues to grow. But we are noticing a softening of the market at the lower end (sub 70ft).
A few of my suppliers also provide the volume builders in Poland (Axopar, Saxdor, Nimbus, etc...) and they have seen a massive drop off. The pandemic and its associated travel restrictions changed the way people spent their money. Lots of people bought into locally based lifestyle products (boats, campervans, tents), and demand soared. But now the real cost of owning these products is starting to become apparent and they are looking to get out. The second hand market is saturated and this has impacted new builds. So, there's a lot of relatively new looking stock out there, but it's not necessarily a sign of a strong situation.
I agree entirely and interesting to read your view. A few of my suppliers also provide the volume builders in Poland (Axopar, Saxdor, Nimbus, etc...) and they have seen a massive drop off. The pandemic and its associated travel restrictions changed the way people spent their money. Lots of people bought into locally based lifestyle products (boats, campervans, tents), and demand soared. But now the real cost of owning these products is starting to become apparent and they are looking to get out. The second hand market is saturated and this has impacted new builds. So, there's a lot of relatively new looking stock out there, but it's not necessarily a sign of a strong situation.
The boat market absolutely flew in Lockdown. The used stock was hoovered up over a period of 18 months. Even well used, rattly Sigmas (think a Ginetta G40 that's been tracked to death) were selling.
Problem was, the manufacturers struggled to keep pace with demand, and consequently, as the market reversed, found themselves holding a lot of stock and a very light order books.
Same is happening in the caravan and lodge market - the manufacturers are really struggling and sales of new and late model used have dropped off a cliff.
For the mid market, this is due to latent demand begin absorbed, so there are now fewer buyers in the markets, they've all bought. Also, the cost of borrowing is much higher, resi market flat, so people are not using equity from house sale to buy a boat/ car/ lodge and Brexit means European craft are more expensive.
That said, 55ft - 75ft still has good orders in this region and sadly no crazy distressed sellers as yet... (because I'm on the lookout for a 'bargain').
The mid-market (£100k-£10m) is pretty flat and has been for about 3 months now.
I am not yet seeing any desperate sellers. On the contrary, the market as slowed dramatically because the boat owners seem to be staying with the boats they have. We rely heavily on boat owners regularly changing their boats to keep the market moving. This isn't really happening at the moment. Consequently we have less sellers and less buyers (in equal amounts).
An added factor is the comedown from the Covid craziness. It represented the first time since the early 2000's when prices of boats firmed up (and in some cases increased). We now need to find where the point where market should return to.
I'm pretty relaxed about it all as these markets are always cyclical on a pretty short-term basis. I (as a broker) could just do without a certain market-dominating advertising platform deciding to increase their pricing by 500% (while they are already charging 1000% more than their next closest competitor).
I am not yet seeing any desperate sellers. On the contrary, the market as slowed dramatically because the boat owners seem to be staying with the boats they have. We rely heavily on boat owners regularly changing their boats to keep the market moving. This isn't really happening at the moment. Consequently we have less sellers and less buyers (in equal amounts).
An added factor is the comedown from the Covid craziness. It represented the first time since the early 2000's when prices of boats firmed up (and in some cases increased). We now need to find where the point where market should return to.
I'm pretty relaxed about it all as these markets are always cyclical on a pretty short-term basis. I (as a broker) could just do without a certain market-dominating advertising platform deciding to increase their pricing by 500% (while they are already charging 1000% more than their next closest competitor).
tr7v8 said:
Very amusing at the moment where people are selling boats & motor homes. Who wants either at this time of the year when they'll have to store or pay moorings for the next 5-6 months.
Someone who wants to buy a boat or a motor home and finds what they want at the right price, same as usual. I worked for a company until this year that was going to be building EV motors for the small boat industry based in Holland, it has potential to be a huge market as they are going to go through the same issues as ICE road vehicles do. So everyone from pleasure to business will have to convert.
As far as bigger stuff is concerned I do not yet see how on earth huge container ships run on anything but diesel, the batteries and motors needed to run something like that would massively impact container space.
I gather huge ship motors run on far less processed oil than cars, trucks etc anyway so maybe it might be possible to keep them using this, even though it is still fossil fuel. But without these ships the world comes to a standstill, so I am guessing they like planes will get a waiver far later than cars, trucks, buses, trains etc.
As far as bigger stuff is concerned I do not yet see how on earth huge container ships run on anything but diesel, the batteries and motors needed to run something like that would massively impact container space.
I gather huge ship motors run on far less processed oil than cars, trucks etc anyway so maybe it might be possible to keep them using this, even though it is still fossil fuel. But without these ships the world comes to a standstill, so I am guessing they like planes will get a waiver far later than cars, trucks, buses, trains etc.
Ari said:
tr7v8 said:
Very amusing at the moment where people are selling boats & motor homes. Who wants either at this time of the year when they'll have to store or pay moorings for the next 5-6 months.
Someone who wants to buy a boat or a motor home and finds what they want at the right price, same as usual. Suddeny it's February and it's 10 weeks of cold weather to get all the pre-season jobs done, while all the yards are busy.
I guess there might be less work to do on a motorhome, but you still want to get the deal done and know it's a cert, so you can plan your year.
Both now tend to have heaters so can be used out of season.
Ari said:
tr7v8 said:
Very amusing at the moment where people are selling boats & motor homes. Who wants either at this time of the year when they'll have to store or pay moorings for the next 5-6 months.
Someone who wants to buy a boat or a motor home and finds what they want at the right price, same as usual. Gassing Station | Boats, Planes & Trains | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff