First experience with a PHEV - not the best
Discussion
Hi all
After years of driving EV's as an only car, I was gifted a PHEV (BMW 225e) as a courtesy car the last couple of days.
I've always thought of any form of hybrid as a 'worst of both' compromise, but in terms of modern PHEV's I've had to admit that if the electric only range is enough for most trips, it's a bit of a none brainer.
Now I'm not so sure though as it seems you have to sacrifice almost everything that makes an electric drivetrain so nice in the first place:
- The EV only mode is very weak unless you push it, at which point the ICE engine joins the party.. But this seemed to have the effect of dulling the electric drive response to better pair it with what the ICE was doing. IE: It was faster off the line 0-20mph without the ICE, although faster with it after that point. But it's that initial nippiness that makes electric cars so great around town.
- Regen seemed very weak most of the time, I assume this is because the smaller battery has a lesser ability to accept charge at the rates needed for higher regen? Whatever the reason, it led to some odd cross play between regen and friction braking, it was quite inconsistent.
- In EV only mode it was slow. When I rinsed the battery playing with 'sport boost' ICE only was slow and rough. After a full charge and sport mode selected, it actually drove best, it was smoother and with the ICE and motor both in full time use, it was pretty nippy. But of course this rapidly sunk the charge and I was soon back in eco.
The thing is, these cars do what they say on the tin, they do 40-50 or whatever mile trips on electric only, which makes them cheap to buy/lease and then dirt cheap to run 99% of trips. In that sense it's a cheap way of getting an electric car, one with more than enough range for most people - and the option for unlimited range if required. On the other hand... They're remarkably slow if used that way which makes them a very dull and restrictive feeling car for those 99% of trips. Brim the tank and hit the motorway and as soon as the battery is depleted, you're basically driving an underpowered ICE car that has the added burden of hauling a dead battery pack and motor around.
These cars work in terms of satisfying a requirement, but at the cost of being a consistent and pleasant/fun car to drive. They're cheaper than BEV only if BIK and/or ULEZ aren't a factor. But if someone wants a cheap car and isn't bothered about zero emission, I can't help think that a well equipped used diesel would be as cheap overall and better overall.
I do however often get asked about my BEV by friends and in almost all cases they reveal that they don't want a full electric 'just yet' but are planning on getting a hybrid/PHEV next, for no reason they can explain other than wanting the apparent safety and familiarity of ICE to remain in the mix - so perhaps that's the true purpose of these cars? They exist largely to give EV newbies a gentle way in? If so it makes sense the manufacturers make such cars available while they still can.. But I can't help but wonder how disappointed a lot of owners must be if their first exciting step towards an electric car is a bit... dull - and very compromised.
Anyway, I have no agenda other than to report my feelings after 4 years of pure electric motoring and to promote discussion. Perhaps there's an angle/value I have entirely missed?
After years of driving EV's as an only car, I was gifted a PHEV (BMW 225e) as a courtesy car the last couple of days.
I've always thought of any form of hybrid as a 'worst of both' compromise, but in terms of modern PHEV's I've had to admit that if the electric only range is enough for most trips, it's a bit of a none brainer.
Now I'm not so sure though as it seems you have to sacrifice almost everything that makes an electric drivetrain so nice in the first place:
- The EV only mode is very weak unless you push it, at which point the ICE engine joins the party.. But this seemed to have the effect of dulling the electric drive response to better pair it with what the ICE was doing. IE: It was faster off the line 0-20mph without the ICE, although faster with it after that point. But it's that initial nippiness that makes electric cars so great around town.
- Regen seemed very weak most of the time, I assume this is because the smaller battery has a lesser ability to accept charge at the rates needed for higher regen? Whatever the reason, it led to some odd cross play between regen and friction braking, it was quite inconsistent.
- In EV only mode it was slow. When I rinsed the battery playing with 'sport boost' ICE only was slow and rough. After a full charge and sport mode selected, it actually drove best, it was smoother and with the ICE and motor both in full time use, it was pretty nippy. But of course this rapidly sunk the charge and I was soon back in eco.
The thing is, these cars do what they say on the tin, they do 40-50 or whatever mile trips on electric only, which makes them cheap to buy/lease and then dirt cheap to run 99% of trips. In that sense it's a cheap way of getting an electric car, one with more than enough range for most people - and the option for unlimited range if required. On the other hand... They're remarkably slow if used that way which makes them a very dull and restrictive feeling car for those 99% of trips. Brim the tank and hit the motorway and as soon as the battery is depleted, you're basically driving an underpowered ICE car that has the added burden of hauling a dead battery pack and motor around.
These cars work in terms of satisfying a requirement, but at the cost of being a consistent and pleasant/fun car to drive. They're cheaper than BEV only if BIK and/or ULEZ aren't a factor. But if someone wants a cheap car and isn't bothered about zero emission, I can't help think that a well equipped used diesel would be as cheap overall and better overall.
I do however often get asked about my BEV by friends and in almost all cases they reveal that they don't want a full electric 'just yet' but are planning on getting a hybrid/PHEV next, for no reason they can explain other than wanting the apparent safety and familiarity of ICE to remain in the mix - so perhaps that's the true purpose of these cars? They exist largely to give EV newbies a gentle way in? If so it makes sense the manufacturers make such cars available while they still can.. But I can't help but wonder how disappointed a lot of owners must be if their first exciting step towards an electric car is a bit... dull - and very compromised.
Anyway, I have no agenda other than to report my feelings after 4 years of pure electric motoring and to promote discussion. Perhaps there's an angle/value I have entirely missed?
plfrench said:
It could explain why CG2020UK was struggling so much with my point about EVs being such a bit step forward in responsiveness if their yardstick was purely based on hybrid EV mode which it did seem to be… 
I don't want to reflame specific arguments you might have had elsewhere 
But yes, as I said towards the end of my post above, hybrid is definitely going to give people a very distorted view of the driver benefits of electrification.
The thing is, the PHEV I drove does have decent electric range and it will be very cheap or people that do those sorts of journeys most of the time - as I do in fact. But it's still nearly £40k to buy the car.. so for a bit more ££ or a less prestigious brand they can have a full BEV with 250m+ real world range. Or for quite a bit less they could have a diesel that will be as punchy and ultimately smoother and nicer to drive more of the time.
Hybrids are compromised by nature, and I'm struggling to see who the compromise truly makes sense for, given the relatively high purchase price.
t thoughfttm said:
Showing blissful ignorance here , I don't know what PHEV even means .
Here you go:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
PBCD said:
fttm said:
Showing blissful ignorance here , I don't know what PHEV even means .
Here you go:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
PHEV,s have never really made sense to me as a concept does seem to be the worst of both worlds, the only benefit I can see is I believe as a company car they are exceptionally cheap in terms of BIK.
Toyotas hybrid system to me at least makes more sense if someone wants a hybrid but maybe I’m missing something.
Toyotas hybrid system to me at least makes more sense if someone wants a hybrid but maybe I’m missing something.
You drove a poor example of a PHEV and found it a poor experience. That’s no great surprise.
I have no such concerns with my plugin XC60 - snappy performance off the line and enough power for everyday driving in electric only mode. B mode regeneration is more than ample for proper 1 pedal driving only needing to touch the brake pedal for emergency braking.
All my local driving is electric only. The only criticism I can level at it is that it’s not as efficient as a regular EV - mostly because it uses resistive heating rather than a heat pump, but also perhaps because the aerodynamics are compromised by the need to holes in the front large enough for an ICE cooling system. It’s still way cheaper to fuel than an ICE though, and much cleaner.
I have no such concerns with my plugin XC60 - snappy performance off the line and enough power for everyday driving in electric only mode. B mode regeneration is more than ample for proper 1 pedal driving only needing to touch the brake pedal for emergency braking.
All my local driving is electric only. The only criticism I can level at it is that it’s not as efficient as a regular EV - mostly because it uses resistive heating rather than a heat pump, but also perhaps because the aerodynamics are compromised by the need to holes in the front large enough for an ICE cooling system. It’s still way cheaper to fuel than an ICE though, and much cleaner.
And yet the new Prius is MotorTrend car of the year, saying it's genuinely fun to drive.
It would be a great car for a lot of people, and a useful gateway into full electrification as the infrastructure catches up. Unfortunately Toyota aren't selling it in the UK, citing lack of demand for the previous model. I guess corporate appearances prevent them from acknowledging the previous model didn't sell because it was completely rancid...
It would be a great car for a lot of people, and a useful gateway into full electrification as the infrastructure catches up. Unfortunately Toyota aren't selling it in the UK, citing lack of demand for the previous model. I guess corporate appearances prevent them from acknowledging the previous model didn't sell because it was completely rancid...
I've had my plug-in XC40 for a month.
Electric-only performance is perfectly adequate for normal driving, and range is enough for 4 out of 5 journeys that I do.
In hybrid mode, the switch between electric and ICE is so smooth that I have set up an individual driving mode that displays the rev counter while everything else is still set to hybrid, so that I can see when the petrol engine is actually running.
Decently fast and smooth when left to do its own thing, the electric motor filling in the "gaps". It really doesn't feel like a boosted 1.5 litre triple.
A 20 mile round trip to the supermarket costs me 70p to recharge on Octopus Go (9p kwh) - the equivalent cost of around 200mpg on petrol.
A 60 mile round trip is getting the equivalent of over 65mpg.
There are a few downsides:
Not as economical as a diesel for long motorway journeys. A once or twice a year thing for me, so not a problem.
The higher purchase price does offset some of the savings.
In Pure Electric mode, it uses just 2 of the gears, so the change up at around 60mph is pretty slow as it skips 3 (I think) gears before reapplying power.
Electric-only performance is perfectly adequate for normal driving, and range is enough for 4 out of 5 journeys that I do.
In hybrid mode, the switch between electric and ICE is so smooth that I have set up an individual driving mode that displays the rev counter while everything else is still set to hybrid, so that I can see when the petrol engine is actually running.
Decently fast and smooth when left to do its own thing, the electric motor filling in the "gaps". It really doesn't feel like a boosted 1.5 litre triple.
A 20 mile round trip to the supermarket costs me 70p to recharge on Octopus Go (9p kwh) - the equivalent cost of around 200mpg on petrol.
A 60 mile round trip is getting the equivalent of over 65mpg.
There are a few downsides:
Not as economical as a diesel for long motorway journeys. A once or twice a year thing for me, so not a problem.
The higher purchase price does offset some of the savings.
In Pure Electric mode, it uses just 2 of the gears, so the change up at around 60mph is pretty slow as it skips 3 (I think) gears before reapplying power.
fttm said:
PBCD said:
fttm said:
Showing blissful ignorance here , I don't know what PHEV even means .
Here you go:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid
(Good post thanks TheDeuce)
I drove a BMW 3 series PHEV, also as a courtesy car. The one with electric motor and 4 cylinder turbo engine. Even in esport or whatever it’s called mode it was slower than my 6 cylinder petrol one. It wa sluggish and heavy and not particularly refined because the engine was a rattly old thing and was really thrashed when you accelerated hard. It did feel (to me) like the worst of both worlds. I think a major reason they exist is there is a market for them as company cars due to the way the tax works,.
My wife has the A250e as a company car. It's a nice place to sit and probably great if you have no interest in cars. The electric range of 40 miles means we fill it up every few months when going on a longer trip but it's electric 90% of the time. It's fine for pootling around town and the immediate torque means it's reasonably quick from the lights when running on electric only. Apparently the 0-60 in sport when both the 3 pot engine and battery are working together is 6.5 but I have no idea how they get that as even with the faintest whiff of moisture in the air it turns most of the power into wheelspin and illuminating the traction control light. It is really tax efficient though.
NDNDNDND said:
And yet the new Prius is MotorTrend car of the year, saying it's genuinely fun to drive.
It would be a great car for a lot of people, and a useful gateway into full electrification as the infrastructure catches up. Unfortunately Toyota aren't selling it in the UK, citing lack of demand for the previous model. I guess corporate appearances prevent them from acknowledging the previous model didn't sell because it was completely rancid...
It is coming to the UK next year.It would be a great car for a lot of people, and a useful gateway into full electrification as the infrastructure catches up. Unfortunately Toyota aren't selling it in the UK, citing lack of demand for the previous model. I guess corporate appearances prevent them from acknowledging the previous model didn't sell because it was completely rancid...
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-offic...
Mammasaid said:
NDNDNDND said:
And yet the new Prius is MotorTrend car of the year, saying it's genuinely fun to drive.
It would be a great car for a lot of people, and a useful gateway into full electrification as the infrastructure catches up. Unfortunately Toyota aren't selling it in the UK, citing lack of demand for the previous model. I guess corporate appearances prevent them from acknowledging the previous model didn't sell because it was completely rancid...
It is coming to the UK next year.It would be a great car for a lot of people, and a useful gateway into full electrification as the infrastructure catches up. Unfortunately Toyota aren't selling it in the UK, citing lack of demand for the previous model. I guess corporate appearances prevent them from acknowledging the previous model didn't sell because it was completely rancid...
https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-offic...
NDNDNDND said:
Ah, I hadn't realised! It'll be interesting to see how well it sells. Kind of amazing to acknowledge the Prius is now a genuinely good-looking car. Makes you wonder why for years they seemed to go out of their way to make the Prius as unappealing as possible...
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