Car parks (UK v France)
Discussion
Looking around our cluttered towns & cities, have you noticed how much space is taken up with both surface car parks as well as numerous above ground multi storey car parks.
Now look at France where car parks are predominantly underground and generally centrally located (eg Lille, Rouen, Epernay, Annecy) - so much neater.
There’s a new hotel being built in Epernay at present and the first phase was to burrow deep into the ground to provide a substantial underground car park before any hotel is built.
Why do we not do this here - to me it’s a no brainer. It also releases valuable land for commercial or retail space.
So much better for the environment and essentially a car free environment.
Of course digging holes cost money but got to be worth a thought.
Perhaps a requirement of new planning regulations?
Now look at France where car parks are predominantly underground and generally centrally located (eg Lille, Rouen, Epernay, Annecy) - so much neater.
There’s a new hotel being built in Epernay at present and the first phase was to burrow deep into the ground to provide a substantial underground car park before any hotel is built.
Why do we not do this here - to me it’s a no brainer. It also releases valuable land for commercial or retail space.
So much better for the environment and essentially a car free environment.
Of course digging holes cost money but got to be worth a thought.
Perhaps a requirement of new planning regulations?
Because no-one makes the developers do it. Our decision makers are more heavily lobbied and receive donations from them.
I asked this question during the consultation for a large apartment block nearby where all of the surface parking is around the edge of the site near neighbour boundaries. “It would cost us £20k extra per flat” was the answer where the basic one beds flats were priced above £400k with the 3-beds at £1m, so £20k could have easily been priced in.
No one on our crowded little islands makes them do it. So it doesn’t happen.
Oh, and, France is a more left/centrist leaning country with a genuine interest in the quality of communities and somehow manages to balance this with making money.
I asked this question during the consultation for a large apartment block nearby where all of the surface parking is around the edge of the site near neighbour boundaries. “It would cost us £20k extra per flat” was the answer where the basic one beds flats were priced above £400k with the 3-beds at £1m, so £20k could have easily been priced in.
No one on our crowded little islands makes them do it. So it doesn’t happen.
Oh, and, France is a more left/centrist leaning country with a genuine interest in the quality of communities and somehow manages to balance this with making money.
Edited by BikeSausage on Sunday 26th November 18:16
BikeSausage said:
Because no-one makes the developers do it. Our decision makers are more heavily lobbied and receive donations from them.
I asked this question during the consultation for a large apartment block nearby where all of the surface parking is around the edge of the site near neighbour boundaries. “It would cost us £20k extra per flat” was the answer where the basic one beds flats were priced above £400k with the 3-beds at £1m, so £20k could have easily been priced in.
No one on our crowded little islands makes them do it. So it doesn’t happen.
Hence the reason why it should be a requirement of any future planning developments. As surface car parks & multi-storey car parks are redeveloped, we replace them with underground car parks (all the ones I’ve visited in France are vast but to the high standards of Q-park or similar).I asked this question during the consultation for a large apartment block nearby where all of the surface parking is around the edge of the site near neighbour boundaries. “It would cost us £20k extra per flat” was the answer where the basic one beds flats were priced above £400k with the 3-beds at £1m, so £20k could have easily been priced in.
No one on our crowded little islands makes them do it. So it doesn’t happen.
As you say, it’s all down to money/profit (same goes for why housing developers don’t provide solar PV or proper high insulation as standard - much cheaper to do this during build rather than retrofit).
The planning/building regulations in this country need a good shake-up.
Boxster5 said:
BikeSausage said:
Because no-one makes the developers do it. Our decision makers are more heavily lobbied and receive donations from them.
I asked this question during the consultation for a large apartment block nearby where all of the surface parking is around the edge of the site near neighbour boundaries. “It would cost us £20k extra per flat” was the answer where the basic one beds flats were priced above £400k with the 3-beds at £1m, so £20k could have easily been priced in.
No one on our crowded little islands makes them do it. So it doesn’t happen.
Hence the reason why it should be a requirement of any future planning developments. As surface car parks & multi-storey car parks are redeveloped, we replace them with underground car parks (all the ones I’ve visited in France are vast but to the high standards of Q-park or similar).I asked this question during the consultation for a large apartment block nearby where all of the surface parking is around the edge of the site near neighbour boundaries. “It would cost us £20k extra per flat” was the answer where the basic one beds flats were priced above £400k with the 3-beds at £1m, so £20k could have easily been priced in.
No one on our crowded little islands makes them do it. So it doesn’t happen.
As you say, it’s all down to money/profit (same goes for why housing developers don’t provide solar PV or proper high insulation as standard - much cheaper to do this during build rather than retrofit).
The planning/building regulations in this country need a good shake-up.
Local interviews with councillors is like a really dull game of bingo as they simultaneously complain about increased traffic levels and not enough parking every time a new development is granted planning permission, with a side of services getting a token mention. We did have a bonus round of problematic speeding on the last one which was interesting as the road spends more time imitating a car park then a motorway.
Slightly off-topic but back in the late 80s my employer was having 2 new office buildings built.
One was in Guildford where the planners restricted the number of (underground) parking spaces they could have in the vain hope people wouldn't drive there. So I ended up using a space in a nearby public car park paid for by my employer!
The other was in Bournemouth where the planners insisted on an (also underground) car park with enough spaces to accommodate all the staff.
So back then it obviously varied according to where you wanted to build but I've no idea if that is still true.
I just can't understand why no developer has added a foot or two to the standard garage sizes, especially for double garages on expensive properties - cars have got bigger!
One was in Guildford where the planners restricted the number of (underground) parking spaces they could have in the vain hope people wouldn't drive there. So I ended up using a space in a nearby public car park paid for by my employer!
The other was in Bournemouth where the planners insisted on an (also underground) car park with enough spaces to accommodate all the staff.
So back then it obviously varied according to where you wanted to build but I've no idea if that is still true.
I just can't understand why no developer has added a foot or two to the standard garage sizes, especially for double garages on expensive properties - cars have got bigger!
HMRC are moving from their entire site North of Newcastle to a city centre location with around 8,500 staff. Yes you’ve guessed correct there will not be enough car parking to accommodate staff.
OK they can possibly use the Metro but that only has a limited appeal as it doesn’t serve everywhere - not only that but the car parks at interchanges aren’t free so that’s on top of the Metro ticket fare - hardly an incentive.
Absolute madness and they wonder why city centres are dying.
Regarding garages, I’ve always garaged both our cars and when we built our own house, I made sure the double garage was oversized (approx 7m x 7m) to future-proof it in case cars get even bigger!
OK they can possibly use the Metro but that only has a limited appeal as it doesn’t serve everywhere - not only that but the car parks at interchanges aren’t free so that’s on top of the Metro ticket fare - hardly an incentive.
Absolute madness and they wonder why city centres are dying.
Regarding garages, I’ve always garaged both our cars and when we built our own house, I made sure the double garage was oversized (approx 7m x 7m) to future-proof it in case cars get even bigger!
Boxster5 said:
HMRC are moving from their entire site North of Newcastle to a city centre location with around 8,500 staff. Yes you’ve guessed correct there will not be enough car parking to accommodate staff.
OK they can possibly use the Metro but that only has a limited appeal as it doesn’t serve everywhere - not only that but the car parks at interchanges aren’t free so that’s on top of the Metro ticket fare - hardly an incentive.
Absolute madness and they wonder why city centres are dying.
Regarding garages, I’ve always garaged both our cars and when we built our own house, I made sure the double garage was oversized (approx 7m x 7m) to future-proof it in case cars get even bigger!
One of the companies I contract for are moving from their outer-London HW with on-site underground, overground and multi-storey car parks to a central London new build with ZERO car parking.OK they can possibly use the Metro but that only has a limited appeal as it doesn’t serve everywhere - not only that but the car parks at interchanges aren’t free so that’s on top of the Metro ticket fare - hardly an incentive.
Absolute madness and they wonder why city centres are dying.
Regarding garages, I’ve always garaged both our cars and when we built our own house, I made sure the double garage was oversized (approx 7m x 7m) to future-proof it in case cars get even bigger!
I was looking at hotels in a random Spanish town and noticed the historic town square had parking signs pointed at it - at some point the whole square had been completely dug out and a carpark stuck underneath, while being surrounded by centuries old buildings. Central, hidden parking - so clever.
It’s under this square - https://www.spain.info/en/destination/valladolid/
Why can’t we do stuff like that?
Lagos in Portugal is the same with a two storey underground car park metres from the sea, the lower level well below sea level, then decking and restaurants on top of it.
Also see solar panels above French supermarket car parking spaces providing shade and energy - genius.
It’s under this square - https://www.spain.info/en/destination/valladolid/
Why can’t we do stuff like that?
Lagos in Portugal is the same with a two storey underground car park metres from the sea, the lower level well below sea level, then decking and restaurants on top of it.
Also see solar panels above French supermarket car parking spaces providing shade and energy - genius.
Pica-Pica said:
mmm-five said:
One of the companies I contract for are moving from their outer-London HW with on-site underground, overground and multi-storey car parks to a central London new build with ZERO car parking.
Who would drive to work in central London anyway?andy43 said:
I suppose another reason it won’t happen here is because green blob really doesn’t like cars.
The theory seems to be if you restrict parking then people will use the bus/bicycle/feet/teleport.
Sadly the theory doesn’t work.
That's probably why it won't happen, why it hasn't happened is more a matter of the UK being a more market-focused, less communitarian society than many EU nations. (And parking, especially off-street, does have a considerable impact on ownership and usage, so those discouraging more parking aren't swing at thin air.)The theory seems to be if you restrict parking then people will use the bus/bicycle/feet/teleport.
Sadly the theory doesn’t work.
I also get the feeling that in much of Europe a mid-sizer contractor wouldn't blink at a project that involves '000 tons of excavation/mass-pour heavy, whereas in the UK that would be deemed considerably more specialised.
The lack of workplace parking in the UK is a real bugbear of mine.
I was an IT contractor for over 20 years so have worked in a lot of places over the UK and those offering staff parking are very much in the minority - generally there are a few spaces for upper management and, of course, HR.
Then there are other places that end up with staff parking on residential side streets which would inevitably end up with people getting assaulted (resident with a baseball bat!), cars vandalised or in a really wacky case I caught a bloke pushing my mates car out of the space in front of his house - he’d smashed the drivers window in order to do this. Nuts.
Other places with quite out of town locations and all the staff end up with their cars littering the grass verges. It’s dogs
t.
I’ve based my decision on whether or not to take contracts on parking. I don’t need the stress or my car damaging.
Current place where I’ve been permie for over a decade has moved office and there’s no parking there (except for HR) but it’s a WFH role and the only time I go in is for piss ups so it’s train.
I was an IT contractor for over 20 years so have worked in a lot of places over the UK and those offering staff parking are very much in the minority - generally there are a few spaces for upper management and, of course, HR.
Then there are other places that end up with staff parking on residential side streets which would inevitably end up with people getting assaulted (resident with a baseball bat!), cars vandalised or in a really wacky case I caught a bloke pushing my mates car out of the space in front of his house - he’d smashed the drivers window in order to do this. Nuts.
Other places with quite out of town locations and all the staff end up with their cars littering the grass verges. It’s dogs
t. I’ve based my decision on whether or not to take contracts on parking. I don’t need the stress or my car damaging.
Current place where I’ve been permie for over a decade has moved office and there’s no parking there (except for HR) but it’s a WFH role and the only time I go in is for piss ups so it’s train.
Pica-Pica said:
mmm-five said:
One of the companies I contract for are moving from their outer-London HW with on-site underground, overground and multi-storey car parks to a central London new build with ZERO car parking.
Who would drive to work in central London anyway?I was involved in some of the very large scale commercial property developments in London and car parking provision is considered highly expensive (basement) and unnecessary provision. Central London has a plethora of public transport options so cars should be discouraged. I spent well over 25years commuting without use of a car and my door to door was significantly less than trying to do it by car. Working on the train was also a useful interruption free time.
andy43 said:
I was looking at hotels in a random Spanish town and noticed the historic town square had parking signs pointed at it - at some point the whole square had been completely dug out and a carpark stuck underneath, while being surrounded by centuries old buildings. Central, hidden parking - so clever.
It’s under this square - https://www.spain.info/en/destination/valladolid/
Why can’t we do stuff like that?
Lagos in Portugal is the same with a two storey underground car park metres from the sea, the lower level well below sea level, then decking and restaurants on top of it.
Also see solar panels above French supermarket car parking spaces providing shade and energy - genius.
Exactly the same in France (Lille is a classic example just like the points you quote - France really care about their heritage so lots of historic half timbered/stone buildings in the centre with massive underground car parking - so much prettier).It’s under this square - https://www.spain.info/en/destination/valladolid/
Why can’t we do stuff like that?
Lagos in Portugal is the same with a two storey underground car park metres from the sea, the lower level well below sea level, then decking and restaurants on top of it.
Also see solar panels above French supermarket car parking spaces providing shade and energy - genius.
I know Lagos well - the multi storey is where you pay your parking fines!!
We had a bit of a road trip through France and Italy this summer and it is definitely better on the continent. The underground parking is great, although most were obviously built when cars were significantly smaller than today. Driving into the centre of somewhere like Verona, I was braced for tiny roads, heavy traffic and expensive parking. It was actually the opposite on all counts.
The thing is though, at what point do we accept that building cities primarily around cars is totally illogical, impractical and unsustainable?
It needs an enormous amount of space, and then there's the congestion, pollution, accidents etc. The cost of building, managing and maintaining it all must be way beyond the cost of a high quality public transport system so as our population continues to grow, shouldn't we be having this discussion?
I know this is Pistonheads so this is probably not a popular thing to say but it's not like driving to work is a fun experience. One big bonus working from home was not having to sit in crawling traffic for up to 2 hours a day.
As much as I don't want to admit it, it's hard to argue objectively against public transport being - by any metric - the best way to get a lot of people in and out of one place, and a lot of places in Europe are way ahead of us on this.
The thing is though, at what point do we accept that building cities primarily around cars is totally illogical, impractical and unsustainable?
It needs an enormous amount of space, and then there's the congestion, pollution, accidents etc. The cost of building, managing and maintaining it all must be way beyond the cost of a high quality public transport system so as our population continues to grow, shouldn't we be having this discussion?
I know this is Pistonheads so this is probably not a popular thing to say but it's not like driving to work is a fun experience. One big bonus working from home was not having to sit in crawling traffic for up to 2 hours a day.
As much as I don't want to admit it, it's hard to argue objectively against public transport being - by any metric - the best way to get a lot of people in and out of one place, and a lot of places in Europe are way ahead of us on this.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff